So what does the majority think about adding catchphrases like "ze" into translations? While it is widely associated with Marisa, it's not really a signature catchphrase like Patchouli's "mukyuu".
I got this thought while translating a series with Alice impersonating Marisa. Without adding the "-ze", it would seem like that Alice was doing a bad job on it...
Which probes another thought of mine while translating another series. ばってん(batten) is a catchphrase uttered by a selective few of elders. Like "-ze", it means nothing alone and is more for emphasizing.
F.I.A said: So what does the majority think about adding catchphrases like "ze" into translations? While it is widely associated with Marisa, it's not really a signature catchphrase like Patchouli's "mukyuu".
Isn't it? It even has its own pool. Add the catchphrases, certainly with Marisa's ZE.
IMHO, when it's used simply in conversation with no humorous intent (post #328371), adding "ze" in notes is really dumb and irksome. I find putting "yo" at the beginning or end of a sentence is a good equivalent for "ze" but it doesn't really work well for all cases.
As I pointed out in the guidelines of pool #1431, there are cases where (da) ze has a separate speech bubble or appears as a separate "side comment" outside the actual bubble. In these cases it is nigh impossible to translate into English (or the translator should come up with something very clever and creative).
The other end of the spectrum is formed by cases where e.g. Marisa's lines can be translated using some English stylistic gimmicks that reflect her use of (da) ze etc. Takapo's use of yo is a good starting point, but I would not call it "equivalent".
If I could translate from Japanese, I would decide these questions case by case, localizing all zes when no point is made of them during the whole story but making all or most of them visible if even one of them "stands out".
takapo said: IMHO, when it's used simply in conversation with no humorous intent (post #328371), adding "ze" in notes is really dumb and irksome.
Oops, I think you're right. Though I don't think these speech quirks sound much better in Japanese.
In general I try to keep the ze's to a minimum these days, but sometimes someone else is mimicking her speech like in F.I.A's example, or sometimes she uses it by itself as a catchphrase, or the artist does that annoying thing where you can tell who is speaking by their speech mannerism, or the usage otherwise just strikes me as particularly conspicuous.
I think that if there's a good reason, you can generally assume that you're translating for a weeaboo^W^Wan educated audience that are conditioned to this sort of thing.
Though I don't think these speech quirks sound much better in Japanese.
I am compelled to guess some and think with analogies of languages I know here, but isn't it something like this?
Level 1: A normal Japanese woman will not end a sentence with da ze.
Level 2: A "real-life" Marisa would end a sentence with da ze every now and then, but definitely not three times per page if transformed into a comic.
Level 3: An artist wants to call attention to Marisa's personality, so he increases the number of da zes. The character's lines begin to sound unnatural.
Level 4: The frequency is further increased, getting overdone as much as the size of Marisa's hat. A memetic joke is born.
I would suggest localizing the zes in various subtle ways when the context allows it. My English might not be strong enough for this, but... how about, for instance...
Patchouli, this is boring, ze! → This ain' no fun, Patchy!
Katajanmarja said: If I could translate from Japanese, I would decide these questions case by case, localizing all zes when no point is made of them during the whole story but making all or most of them visible if even one of them "stands out".
I've always advocated case-by-case evaluation. Translation is not a precise art, and whether the readers like it or not, the translator constantly has to use his own judgment in deciding how much information to "reveal".
Best to go by intent rather than wording. Unless they call specific attention to all the DA ZE, the entire purpose of that speech pattern is to make Marisa sound rude and butch.
Therefore, take the meaning of the words, then shape them into English as spoken by a rude male.
Yeah, also -ze isn't a catchphrase (which should be left intact, they are phrases, after all) its a...vocal tic, like overly pronounced DESU, and unless the joke at hand hinges on them, they probably shouldn't be left in.
But if the joke depends on them being there, don't strain your brain to hard trying to compensate, just leave them in.
Therefore, take the meaning of the words, then shape them into English as spoken by a rude male.
*clap* *clap* *clap*
A great wording for the theory. Please let me call your attention to the practical side of it.
post #469476 -- If we take a look at this page of "Magical Drug", we see two currently unlocalized uses of ze. Adjusting the translations to Sgc's guideline would hardly be a very demanding task for an experienced translator.
post #328371 -- Turn the page! Here, if the current translation is any good, the original text gets playful. Marisa's rude style is combined with an idea we (at least in my culture) would not expect "a rude male" to express at all. (That is what earned the post a place in the "ZE!!!" pool in the first place.)
I beg Danbooru translators to give suggestions on how to better translate that Alice... You really are a good woman, ze.
Katajanmarja said: I beg Danbooru translators to give suggestions on how to better translate that Alice... You really are a good woman, ze.
I reworded Marisa's dialogue in both those images. See how it looks to you.
Marisa's rude style is combined with an idea we (at least in my culture) would not expect "a rude male" to express at all. (That is what earned the post a place in the "ZE!!!" pool in the first place.)
Well, Marisa's speaking style is kinda incongruous with her level of intelligence, as well. You wouldn't typically hear a native Japanese speaker using the da ze affectation shortly after talking about reciting the digits of pi.
sgcdonmai said: I reworded Marisa's dialogue in both those images. See how it looks to you.
Honestly I like the old translation in post #328371 better (the other is alright). Switching between "you" and "ya" in a same sentence is just... It made Marisa sound like she's trying too hard to talk rudely.
But I'm no translator, so whichever you and the others see fit.
rantuyetmai said: Honestly I like the old translation in post #328371 better (the other is alright). Switching between "you" and "ya" in a same sentence is just... It made Marisa sound like she's trying too hard to talk rudely.
She often does sound that way, really.
I left it "you're" because "yer" is too far in the other direction, and looks horrible. Also, "ya're" is arguably worse. Spoken aloud, "you're" is often slurred down to sounding like "yer" anyway, almost without regard to the speaker's classiness (or relative lack thereof). Conversely, with a rude speaker, the word "you" will be slurred down to "ya" in general use, with the regular "you" sometimes being used for times where particular emphasis.
Examples: case 1: "Love ya, doll girl. Be back by supper!" case 2: "'Cause I love you, Alice! Not the shrine maiden!"
I phrased Mari's speech accordingly in those images, I think.
F.I.A said: Also, while we're at it, anyone can think of a way to translate Rumia's "Is that so? (そなのか)" when she only utters a part of it?
Like...
なのか = ? －のか = ?
This one's tricky, and should be taken on a case-by-case basis.
Unless it's calling particular attention to the verbal tic, のか alone should probably not be translated as a joke on her catch phrase, due to it being such a commonly-used inquisitory sentence-ender. ___なのか, on the other hand, isn't really all that common in actual use (albeit not unheard-of). For that, using "Is that (a/an/the) ___?" is right.
If she's in her typical arms-straight-out pose - especially if she's got the usual airhead/spaced-out look on her face - it's probably supposed to be a joke on her catch-phrase.
Well, Marisa's speaking style is kinda incongruous with her level of intelligence, as well. You wouldn't typically hear a native Japanese speaker using the da ze affectation shortly after talking about reciting the digits of pi.
Ha ha, thanks for that! How to best underline those incongruences in translation is the question.
I am very grateful for the time you took working on "Magical Drug". While the comic is not exactly a literary masterpiece, it features some very touching moments.
I would love to read more analyses like the one concerning ya vs. you and you're vs. yer, as well as more input from other translators.
Sadly for me, we have about achieved the level of stylistic subtlety in English that I can handle. I would probably have added still more stuff like an', jus', whatcha and takin', simply to make the point clear. But if the difference is not really that, er, flagrant in Japanese, I would have done wrong.
Another question is that the Danbooru community seems to appreciate exact translations more than I do. When I translate, I am quite ready to add a phrase here and shorten another one there to better reflect the feeling of the original content. Thus I could have experimented with something like, Y'know what, Alice..? Ya really are a good woman.
Oh, that reminds me of a grammatical quirk I have seen in comics written by Alan Moore. No idea how it would fit here, but intuitively it sounds about as "ruff" to me as the original version preserving the ze:
Alice... Ya really are a good woman, is what chu are.
Katajanmarja said: I would love to read more analyses like the one concerning ya vs. you and you're vs. yer, as well as more input from other translators.
Well, one thing to keep in mind is audible vocal tone. Going from "you" to "ya" only involves shortening the vocalization. On the other hand, going from "you're" to "yer" changes the tone of voice, adding a growling, aggressive tone that wasn't really present in the original. Doing that detracts a bit from the lazy speech patterns Marisa favors.
I would probably have added still more stuff like an', jus', whatcha and takin', simply to make the point clear.
Some of that was called for, yes. If you'll notice, I've made some changes based on those suggestions in Magical Drug.
Another question is that the Danbooru community seems to appreciate exact translations more than I do. When I translate, I am quite ready to add a phrase here and shorten another one there to better reflect the feeling of the original content. Thus I could have experimented with something like, Y'know what, Alice..? Ya really are a good woman.
That would have worked, too. To me, your sentence has a similar enough feel to "Ya really are a good woman, Alice" that choosing between the two is mostly a matter of preference.
Oh, that reminds me of a grammatical quirk I have seen in comics written by Alan Moore. No idea how it would fit here, but intuitively it sounds about as "ruff" to me as the original version preserving the ze:
Alice... Ya really are a good woman, is what chu are.
That puts a little too much "ruff" into it. Also, from an English standpoint, it reads as more of a patois than a tough-guy slur.
In all of this, just bear in mind that a lot of things in written Japanese are conveyed in English simply through tone of voice, and trying to mimic too much of that in writing can adversely affect readability.
