Unfortunately NeferPitous gender Is controversial for a couple reasons like because she was mistranslated to a male in english but there have been a lot of explanations about her gender like this here
that's a lot of reading if someone doesn't want to do it I could explain most of the points like togashi, the person credited for hunter hunter drew this after the Chimera story ended in 2012 here and she calls herself boku in japanese where some say that means male but it actually means masculine and if a female calls themself Boku it means theyre a bokukko like zero two and diane and yuuki then hestia from danmachi
Then her wiki doesn't talk about her calling herself boku in japanese and you could look up a bokukko and some smaller details like the humans call her and the other chimeras aitsu in japanese and that's an insulting way to call someone an it and that can be used for males or females and the first link shows examples of how aitsu doesn't mean nonbinary but that it's an insult that the humans call all the chimeras except for the ones that are on their side
Then how the databook that calls pitou a male one time and is proven to not be written by togashi and how everyone treats it as unofficial and the English translator saying that pitou being translated to a male was a mistranslation here
then last the wiki says she has an ambiguous gender but unfortunately her gender is controversial as someone that was mistaken for being nonbinary or transgender being admitted to be a mistake would be difficult for some to acknowledge especially because she's one of the most popular on hunter hunter, so the wiki is actually biased and I'd like to change it but I don't know how but if I did it might be changed back regardless if it had proof or not but wiki says stuff like she has an ambiguous gender because 1. the databook which it never shows togashi never wrote it and 2. says she's called a he in the dubbed anime without citing anything when she's never called a he in the anime because her and most of the other chimeras are called by their names by the humans and the royal guards like pitou are called sir pitou never he or she and 3. it says she calls herself boku without mentioning bokukkos and 4. says she's usually but not always shown with a flat chest when she's almost always shown with feminine breasts if it's a side view like these here and there is a spoiler picture in the last link, 5. it uses her name as evidence that she has an ambiguous gender even though that's a trivia part and not evidence and 6. it does say that in 2018 the crunchyroll subs gave her female pronouns and that was also a lot of reading but it might be easier to read the first link then compare it to the wiki and articles like these here and here and here
the last example just repeats some of the wiki and for the last point I don't think pitou should be portrayed as nonbinary of genderless because of a mistranslation while a couple characters from hunter hunter like alluka and kalluto are implied as being nonbinary or transgender because the story implies it unlike with pitou
sorry if that's a long post for a small topic but I thought it was healthy to acknowledge some of the mistakes and some omissions especially when there are implied nonbinary of transgender characters like alluka or kalluto and sorry for not making the post easy to read I don't post on the internet much so I don't type well but if you read all of it or the first link then I'm glad you did and could hopefully consider changing that or the wiki Edit and here's a link to the wiki https://hunterxhunter.fandom.com/wiki/Neferpitou#:~:text=in%20Chapter%20304-,This%20article%20uses,-the%20gender%2Dneutral and if any one disagrees could you explain any counter evidence
If I parsed this humongous run-on sentence correctly, the main arguments graf29 seems to be making to make Neferpitou tagged as a girl by default are:
The claim that the databook refers to Neferpitou is male is based on a translation error.
Neferpitou was never called "he" in the English dub.
Neferpitou was always drawn with a slight bust in the manga.
"Boku" is a masculine pronoun, but some female characters ("bokukko") also use it.
There may be pushback against calling Neferpitou a girl because the idea of them being potentially nonbinary is too appealing.
Fandom's wiki is biased toward the gender-neutral position.
You do a much better job at formatting and getting to the point thanks
Except the databook didn't have the translation error, the databook was proven to have been written by shueisha which is like the Japanese shonen jump and wasn't written by togashi and the English mistranslation was the English translator for the entire manga she thought pitous appearance for the first few chapters appeared creepy to her so she called pitou he then after a few chapters her appearance got more feminine since hunter hunter is known for having characters starting out with one appearance then getting more detail after a few chapters heres an example And the English translator appeared to think she'd get in trouble so she kept calling pitou a he in the English manga
While I think that Neferpitou 1other solo could definitely stand to get cleaned up since some of the posts in it are closer to 1girl than 1other, I also think this BUR is kind of pointless? There will still be instances of Pitou art that falls more into the 1other category than 1girl, so I think uploaders should still be given the chance to use their better judgement to determine where each respective upload falls.
Also.. You mention Alluka and Kalluto there at the end as transgender/nonbinary characters as if that's a reason that it's not good for Pitou to not be tagged properly as female, but... If you just look at their tags, that same judgement of uploaders is given to determine their counter tagging and they are both still predominately tagged as male even if Alluka gets referred to as female a few times in the story. I just think it might not be a good argument for your stance to compare the Pitou counter split to those kids with equally split counters.
The main idea of tagging Neferpitou as 1other is that it's assumed/implied she (it?) has a featureless body, mostly because
it's never outright stated, given we're talking about a humanoid ant, and the character has an androgynous appearance
the joints suggest features of a doll or mannequin
there's a complete lack of defined breast outline for most of the manga & anime
The wiki even points out numerous examples that support opposing views on their gender. Given the amount of ambiguous characters in this manga (Kurapika, Alluka Zoldyck) to me this seems like another obvious example of purposeful ambiguity, so I don't think it's a good idea to move away from the status quo because of something said by a third party.
gunupmyskirt said:
While I think that Neferpitou 1other solo could definitely stand to get cleaned up since some of the posts in it are closer to 1girl than 1other, I also think this BUR is kind of pointless? There will still be instances of Pitou art that falls more into the 1other category than 1girl, so I think uploaders should still be given the chance to use their better judgement to determine where each respective upload falls.
Also this. Obviously we should tag the ones that have female features (visible breasts, pussy etc) as 1girl, but given that the community has always seen Pitou as an androgynous question mark, a lot of artists are bound to draw it ambiguously on purpose, so a BUR like this doesn't make much sense.
The main idea of tagging Neferpitou as 1other is that it's assumed/implied she (it?) has a featureless body, mostly because
Thanks for the replies and no offense but I don't think you read the post or the reddit post because pitou doesn't have an ambiguous appearance in the manga or anime like here and here and both of those prove she's supposed to be a female at least physically since togashi drew it
And you said she's an ant and a mannequin but the joints suggest exoskeleton joints but they're not an exoskeleton and any of those possibilities don't mean she doesn't have a gender and it was confirmed in the story that chimeras reproduce sexually meaning they have genders And the story never has to explain pitous gender especially because she wasn't the focus of the story and that doesn't mean she's not genderless, and that a couple chimeras call themselves females by 2 calling themselves queens and 1 called herself a young girl and pitou never had to say any of that And last was you cited the wiki like how some cite the databook which calls her he one time but it was confirmed togashi didn't write it
in that same way like I said in the post the wiki is biased and lying about how she's called he in the anime while she never was and omitting that her being called a he in the English manga was a proven mistranslation and omitting bokukkos and that the wiki is unreliable like any wiki can be vandalized, lie, biased and other flaws And maybe you get how one of the most popular on hunter hunter being mistranslated to a he while obviously being a female caused a lot to think she's nonbinary or transgender but is very easy to prove she's a female and not a non female especially by your standards of being a female if she has feminine breasts or female genitalia
And then saying if there are no big feminine breasts or female genitalia that should mean they might not be a female regardless if they're wearing puffy clothes that hide their physiques like a dress or maybe masculine clothes seems like an over sight And again thanks for the replies and it was a lot of reading but I don't think you read it because the post and reddit explained all of your counter evidence
Thanks for the replies and no offense but I don't think you read the post or the reddit post because pitou doesn't have an ambiguous appearance in the manga or anime like here and here and both of those prove she's supposed to be a female at least physically since togashi drew it
Clearly you haven't been around for the edit warring of male with breasts on Bridget posts. If users want to see a character as a certain gender, they will.
And you said she's an ant and a mannequin but the joints suggest exoskeleton joints but they're not an exoskeleton
No idea what you're trying to say here.
any of those possibilities don't mean she doesn't have a gender and it was confirmed in the story that chimeras reproduce sexually meaning they have genders And the story never has to explain pitous gender especially because she wasn't the focus of the story and that doesn't mean she's not genderless, and that a couple chimeras call themselves females by 2 calling themselves queens and 1 called herself a young girl and pitou never had to say any of that And last was you cited the wiki like how some cite the databook which calls her he one time but it was confirmed togashi didn't write it
Having a feminine character refer to themselves with boku or ore is already a clear attempt by the author to indicate gender nonconformity of some kind, whether it's due to being genderless or otherwise. (Also sexual reproduction isn't inherently equivalent to having genders.)
in that same way like I said in the post the wiki is biased lying about how she's called he in the anime while she never was and omitting that her being called a he in the English manga was a proven mistranslation and omitting bokukkos and that the wiki is unreliable like any wiki can be vandalized, lie, biased and other flaws And maybe you get how one of the most popular on hunter hunter being mistranslated to a he while obviously being a female caused a lot to think she's nonbinary or transgender but is very easy to prove she's a female and not a non female especially by your standards of being a female if she has feminine breasts or female genitalia
Okay, but this doesn't negate the fact that a non-zero amount of fanartists still interpret Neferpitou as being an ambiguous gender of some kind and intentionally draw them in that way. Mass updating every single solo post like that is bound to cause mistags. You can call the wiki biased or liars all you want, but the official translation holds some weight since it's not just done by one person in a vacuum, and it's clear you're also biased towards one specific interpretation here.
And then saying if there are no big feminine breasts or female genitalia that should mean they might not be a female regardless if they're wearing puffy clothes that hide their physiques like a dress or maybe masculine clothes seems like an over sight
Nobody is saying that. But if you're curious, generally the gender tagging policy is tag what you see for posts where you can physically see secondary sexual characteristics, and defer to canon tagging for posts where you can't. It has nothing to do with breast size.
And again thanks for the replies and it was a lot of reading but I don't think you read it because the post and reddit explained all of your counter evidence
Well not going to lie, you're not making it easy for other users to read what you post. At least you're adding paragraph breaks now, but a little bit of punctuation can go a long way for making people want to actually sit and read your arguments. I myself will probably not respond to anything else you say in this thread if your posts continue to be punctuationless string of consciousness posting with no consideration for ease of readability to other users.
Thanks limegirl but I was talking to noname which could be why some of my responses didn't make sense but responding to your counter arguments and thanks for the counter arguments The first point you said, if Bridget is supposed to be a male, then drawing them with feminine breasts I'd think would mean they'd still be classified as a male and the other way around but maybe that isn't how the rules were made on danbooru I'm still new so I don't know much about the rules on the website
And your third point reply was that she called herself boku not ore and like my post and the reddit post said, Boku doesn't mean male it means masculine and females call themselves boku and they're called bokukkos you can check what a Bokukko is and that's what pitou is
And your fourth point is I think someone like pitou is still a female regardless if she's rarely drawn with masculine breasts and that I don't think you read the post either because it's also explained that she was mistranslated to he in English where even the English translator that called her a he said it was a mistranslation and I'll link it again here then you said that translations hold weight so admitting they mistranslated her to a male would also be a fact and the wiki omits that as well as other facts implying and hinting she's a female so that's why it's biased and lies about her being called a male a lot in the anime while she's never called a male in the anime
Your fifth point response was also a response to noname because they literally said "Obviously we should tag the ones that have female features (visible breasts, pussy etc) as 1girl" which is why I said that
And your last point was if you don't want to read the arguments because it not being punctuated is to hard to read then I don't think your taking the arguments seriously and just sticking to your preferences and not reading counter arguments like how my last post was to noname
Equating real difficulty reading your posts because they lack separation and punctuation to not being serious about this discussion is a fallacy. If you make your posts significantly more difficult to read, you will not get as much engagement because people don't want to spend time parsing something and potentially misconstruing your viewpoint which could lead to a drawn-out argument over something that wasn't even the point of the discussion. There is value in being clear and concise.
The forums are for everyone's use, and a discussion on the forum involves everyone. You don't pick and choose your audience.
Since a significant amount of the argument seems to hinge on the interview with the translator, let's start with breaking down why this might not be as convincing as it first appears.
The Reddit user Carock_ posted what they claim to be a transcript of the interview almost a decade after it occurred. However, the podcast that featured the interview is no longer available, making it difficult to verify whether the transcript is real or not. I'm assuming this Reddit user is the "third party" nonamethanks was referring to.
Even if we assume the transcript is legitimate, there are still issues with using it as definitive evidence. The translator mentions that the anime character designer always believed Neferpitou is a girl, but that doesn't necessarily mean the manga author believes that. The studios handling the anime adaptations don't have perfect knowledge of the source material; they work what they are given and may change things to fill the gaps, make it more palatable, or even accidently because of their lack of knowledge. For example, in both the Japanese and English dubs of Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple, Shiratori Kaoru was portrayed as male. However, the anime was made before the manga revealed she is actually a woman.
None of this disproves Neferpitou is a girl, but it's not enough on its own to settle the matter.
Also, the part where the translator says "Oh, I figured I'd get in trouble for that one." was probably meant in jest. It sounded like she was lightheartedly pointing out the fans noticing the discrepancy with her pronoun use rather than thinking she'd get in actual trouble for it.
Since a significant amount of the argument seems to hinge on the interview with the translator, let's start with breaking down why this might not be as convincing as it first appears.
heres the interview for you crazy deniers here and it's just a clip and I can find the full video if you want
And then you say only the mangaka can prove it but what about this link again here and here and then that just because she never called herself a queen or a little girl like two of the chimeras doesn't mean she's not a female And the fact that while the story never had to explain her gender she never said she was a male or nonbinary either and don't you think if someones genderless or nonbinary the story almost always makes it obvious
If you just use the smallest context clues, deductive reasoning, or common sense she's obviously a female that never had to explain her gender
Again there's literally nothing that suggests she's not a female that doesn't get disproven and if you can find anything that suggests she's not a female I'd like you to show me even if you ignored everything suggesting and proving shes a female
Well if it's worth anything, here are the archived discussion pages on the Fandom wiki regarding Neferpitou, I guess. Archive 1, Archive 2, Current. And the Pixiv article, which has the excerpt:
Which specifically mentions that Neferpitou has an androgynous appearance that could be interpreted as either a boy or a girl. Of course the next section (イメージの変遷) also mentions the whole design change over time thing that was mentioned a few times in this thread somewhere in the walls of text rambling, but this doesn't change the fact that the initial design (and older fanart based on the earlier design!) probably were intentionally playing with the gender ambiguity.
Just searching ネフェルピトー on google DuckDuckGo gives some interesting Japanese perspectives on their gender and the fact that it was up for debate and ambiguous in the Japanese fandom, if the original intent/Japanese audience matters so much.
Well if it's worth anything, here are the archived discussion pages on the Fandom wiki regarding Neferpitou
Thanks for the digging but most of what they say is talked about in the first reddit post I linked including how some of them say the "initial" design, but togashis known for having one appearance then getting more detailed over time like here are some examples here and here and pitou had an "ambiguous" appearance at the begining that lasted for literally 3 chapters from 197 to 200 and that's what the pixiv description is talking about and anyone talking about her "initial" appearance
And here is a post from a long time ago talking about how pitous appearance got more details like all the other characters And then some of those wiki forums are citing the databook which was proven to not have been written by togashi that the first Reddit post talks about too, because there's a picture of the credits on the back of the book and togashis not credited as a writer because like most databooks they're written by other groups that share the trademark
But thanks for anyone actually trying to read all of this and possibly seeing a lot of evidence that doesn't get talked about much but I think I'm finished explaining it because once I found out this was up to a vocal minority on a forum, this was never gonna pass
Like I said if anyone had any counter evidence that hasn't been disproven they could show it but nobody showed evidence that wasn't disproven and ignored everything showing she's a female
But if anyone's actually trying to figure it out they could read the reddit post here and compare it to anything saying shes not a female And last again thanks to anyone reading except for some of the biased ones like noname who I was Dming trying to find out how the rules worked and they said pitous not a female, then I showed them the evidence and proof then they said it's not up to me(graf) to change the 1others to 1females, then less then 12 hours after they sent the message they come to the bur, leaves a comment showing they didn't read it then denied it and left
