I haven't seen any official statement on the matter and I can't even see what is the problem of doing so just after upload.
I want some statements or discussion so people can use as a reference to what behaviour is punishable or not
Posted under General
Well if you are 1-uping stuff there is literally no excuse not to copy the tags before uploading except for really wanting your name on the upload which isn't a good one anyway.
Other than that I think you should tag on the upload page instead of right after as I see no reason not to.
A common argument I hear regarding this issue is that when multiple people are uploading the same artist, people who tag after uploading have an unfair advantage compared to people who tag before uploading. Another issue is that people sometimes forget to tag their uploads, even if they intend to. I don't think any of this is official policy, but a few neg records have been handed out for persistently "sniping" uploads.
I think we can let the cat out of the bag and say that this issue is still related to image sniping.
I don't follow Danbooru as I used to but it's an undeniable fact that certain users, most of the time Builders, upload with very few tags or with absoutely zero, not even an artist tag is provided on upload.
So, what does this tell us. Well, for one it tells us that the hidden uploader name does nothing and that's a problem: Sniping is still a problem, with or without the uploader name on upload (Notice I don't use Top Tagger here).
On the other hand, it also tells us that some users just want to watch the world burn. The problem really only pops up with new uploads that are still fresh. You still risk not being the uploader if you don't do it in the most disrespectful way against others which is sniping, because you don't have anything to lose. You still stay the uploader and while the name isn't public, it is still marked as your achievement and contribuition to the site. At least it makes the uploader feel that way. If there is an uploader name or not doesn't matter at all.
And on the other side it tells us, and I already mentioned that, that some users just want to be in the limelight no matter what. It doesn't matter if someone gets sniped or made angry. And it seems Danbooru actually promotes such behavior because if you issue a feedback against it, it will get deleted. This, in fact, strengthens the snipers even more because there is no repercussion on what they do.
What's the best way to deal with image sniper. What is the best way to tell you that contributions, such as uploading and tagging your uploads actually matters. We say that tagging is important but what do you get for tagging an image? Nothing, at least not anything that is publicly visible.
The best way to do something against sniping (and therefore less upset people) is a system that was already implemented but got shut down for some shady reason which I still don't get. Yes, top tagger actually required something from the uploader: It made them tag an image as fast as possible and snipes have been reduced. Why is that? Because if you snipe an image but another person takes a bit longer but adds the tags to your upload, then you actually risk losing the top tagger position. It was good that this information was public, too. Because now, you as the uploader, could never get the same satisfaction anymore because you have to actually put effort in your contributions now.
That system is gone and with the removal the big return of image sniping has returned. Or at least the impact of it because now you can't snatch the credit from a poorly tagged upload anymore.
Uploading with zero tags is no contribution. It's just a kick in the face for the users that actually tried to add some tags and put effort into it.
This gets even worse when this upload is a parent post of an already existing upload: If you can't even then copy the tags on upload (and then not even parent said upload), then it will make people upset and that's never ever a good thing.
I think I understand this quite well now. I also used to upload with very few tags but nowadays I don't really see the point in it. The goal shouldv be to tag an image as good and as fast as possible but at the same time you shouldn't make someone upset who also put effort into an upload. Which is why I tag my uploads properly from scratch. Yes, I also get sniped but mostly from people that have already added some tags.
Anyway, I'm in for the return of the top tagger system because it made tagging on upload much more valuable that no name at all.
Lacrimosa said:
Uploading with zero tags is no contribution. It's just a kick in the face for the users that actually tried to add some tags and put effort into it.
This gets even worse when this upload is a parent post of an already existing upload: If you can't even then copy the tags on upload (and then not even parent said upload), then it will make people upset and that's never ever a good thing.I also used to upload with very few tags but nowadays I don't really see the point in it. The goal should be to tag an image as good and as fast as possible but at the same time you shouldn't make someone upset who also put effort into an upload. Which is why I tag my uploads properly from scratch. Yes, I also get sniped but mostly from people that have already added some tags.
Yeah, exactly this. It is really frustrating when all the actual effort in tagging an upload from start to finish goes to utter waste when some dumbbutt just straight up mintag the post. It’s really is insulting towards hard working uploaders who tag very well on the upload page.
About two months ago on the Discord, I’ve called out someone (I won’t name any names, but they know who they are) for their sniping behavior, and they justified it by saying they came to believe it’s snipe or be sniped, especially for “certain artists”. Right, so I take that they believe sniping with few or no tags is alright and encouraged as long as they still win the upload in the end. Sounds like what all snipers would say in defense. Well, not like they have any shame anyway. I have a bit more to say about this in regards to what else this “someone” did, but maybe later.
And besides, why snipe/mintag? There’s no fun in that compared to fulltagging upfront.
inkuJerr said:
Yeah, exactly this. It is really frustrating when all the actual effort in tagging an upload from start to finish goes to utter waste when some dumbbutt just straight up mintag the post. It’s really is insulting towards hard working uploaders who tag very well on the upload page.
Just want to contribute by saying, that I totally agree with you. When some ppl can´t even tag the most easiest things like 1girl [[solo] etc., it´s really frustrating to see for someone who tries to put as much tags as possible. And sometimes those posts don´t even geht those basic tags.
I really liked the "top tagger" system that way it was.
fredgido said:
I haven't seen any official statement on the matter and I can't even see what is the problem of doing so just after upload.
I want some statements or discussion so people can use as a reference to what behaviour is punishable or not
Since this thread will probably divert to the still present sniping issue, I’d like to answer your questions first. This is not an “official statement”, though.
As kittey said, the single biggest issue with tagging nothing on upload (sniping) is that it isn't officially against the rules - the Minimal Tagging Criteria mentioned in howto:upload regards "tagging new posts", not "tagging on upload".
Since a majority of the uploading community seems to agree that such practises are "a dick move", the first step toward stopping this behaviour is actually adding rules against it. A limit for the minimum amount of tags something can be uploaded with would be a start (with exceptions if tags such as scenery and text_only_page are present).
AngryZapdos said:
Since a majority of the uploading community seems to agree that such practises are "a dick move", the first step toward stopping this behaviour is actually adding rules against it. A limit for the minimum amount of tags something can be uploaded with would be a start (with exceptions if tags such as scenery and text_only_page are present).
The problem that always comes with such exceptions are that some people will abuse the heck out of it by only adding that tag and nothing more before uploading. Sure, they can be caught and punished but who is gonna monitor/regularly check the upload page to keep track of what tags people at before they upload?
Only issue I had with the Top Tagger system was that people would resort to over-tagging to get their name on an image, often tagging tiny details that would otherwise be overlooked due to their relative unimportance in an image, like a small palm tree in the distance in a beach image or tagging a single set of frills on clothing, especially if you got sniped so you added your tags to theirs, then they'd go out of their way to tag every inconsequential thing to get their name back on the image.
There's nothing wrong with tagging after upload.
It's only a problem if someone doesn't tag within a reasonable timeframe. I haven't seen any cases of regular uploaders who don't. The people I've seen who do this usually finish within 5 minutes or so.
What I see more often is uploaders racing for first post, getting beaten, then attacking the other person for "cheating" by uploading first and tagging second. I've seen this happen even when the other person adds all the artist/character/copyright tags upfront, along with 10+ gentags, then adds the remainder 1-2 minutes after upload. Behavior like this makes it clear to me that this is really about fighting over who gets first post, not about tagging quality.
Sniping is only a problem if you treat Danbooru as a competition. It's not. It doesn't matter who gets first post. Fighting over it is frankly toxic behavior. You don't get to complain about other users rushing for first post when you're trying to do the same thing.
evazion said:
There's nothing wrong with tagging after upload.
It's only a problem if someone doesn't tag within a reasonable timeframe. I haven't seen any cases of regular uploaders who don't. The people I've seen who do this usually finish within 5 minutes or so.
What I see more often is uploaders racing for first post, getting beaten, then attacking the other person for "cheating" by uploading first and tagging second. I've seen this happen even when the other person adds all the artist/character/copyright tags upfront, along with 10+ gentags, then adds the remainder 1-2 minutes after upload. Behavior like this makes it clear to me that this is really about fighting over who gets first post, not about tagging quality.
Sniping is only a problem if you treat Danbooru as a competition. It's not. It doesn't matter who gets first post. Fighting over it is frankly toxic behavior. You don't get to complain about other users rushing for first post when you're trying to do the same thing.
Well I can't speak for everyone but if I get beaten to an upload by someone that tags well (~30+ tags) I get annoyed for maybe a second before shrugging it off because I got a fair shot at it but it was my own fault for being too slow at tagging it. If I get beaten by someone that didn't even add 5 tags before uploading I get more annoyed because then it's not a fair fight anymore, it's just a cheap tactic to get your name on that high-scoring post which is the only reason some people are uploading on Danbooru.
I think removing score/favcount would be a better way of "solving" this than bringing back Top Tagger but I doubt it's gonna happen anyway.
On a somewhat related side-topic, it would be nice if there was a 5-15 minute delay before anyone other than the uploader could tag an image. I've had it happen quite a few times where I'd upload an image, notice a tagging error, but before I could fix it, another user had beaten me to it. It usually ends up created 3 or more post version records, since I frequently also think of additional tags only after the image is uploaded.
I also sometimes make multiple edits to the same image, as I often think of addition tags after clicking submit, but that same back-and-forth churn is less likely the older an image is. Maybe have that 5-15 minute delay within the first 24 hours of an image being uploaded, where tag edits would be locked to a single user.
BrokenEagle98 said:
On a somewhat related side-topic, it would be nice if there was a 5-15 minute delay before anyone other than the uploader could tag an image. I've had it happen quite a few times where I'd upload an image, notice a tagging error, but before I could fix it, another user had beaten me to it. It usually ends up created 3 or more post version records, since I frequently also think of additional tags only after the image is uploaded.
I also sometimes make multiple edits to the same image, as I often think of addition tags after clicking submit, but that same back-and-forth churn is less likely the older an image is. Maybe have that 5-15 minute delay within the first 24 hours of an image being uploaded, where tag edits would be locked to a single user.
Personal convenience should not be a site priority, especially when it is to the detriment of other users.
seika0 said:
Personal convenience should not be a site priority, especially when it is to the detriment of other users.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. I was actually thinking more about the waste of site resources. All of those extra records take up space. The post versions database is gigantic at multiple gigabytes, and only growing bigger and slower as time goes on. Measures have already been taken to dramatically lessen that growth, such as merging all edits done within an hour by the same user. I was only proposing other measures to add onto that.
evazion said:
There's nothing wrong with tagging after upload.
It's only a problem if someone doesn't tag within a reasonable timeframe. I haven't seen any cases of regular uploaders who don't. The people I've seen who do this usually finish within 5 minutes or so.
What I see more often is uploaders racing for first post, getting beaten, then attacking the other person for "cheating" by uploading first and tagging second. I've seen this happen even when the other person adds all the artist/character/copyright tags upfront, along with 10+ gentags, then adds the remainder 1-2 minutes after upload. Behavior like this makes it clear to me that this is really about fighting over who gets first post, not about tagging quality.
Sniping is only a problem if you treat Danbooru as a competition. It's not. It doesn't matter who gets first post. Fighting over it is frankly toxic behavior. You don't get to complain about other users rushing for first post when you're trying to do the same thing.
The problem is that sniping actually promotes toxic behavior because sniping itself is toxic. You know someone will get upset, doesn't matter if you say that Danbooru is a competition or not. For me it isn't as well but hey, someone wanted some credit for tagging properly.
This is a never ending cycle that was somewhat calmed down by the top tagger syste. The top tagger system actually rewarded fast tagging. Not really precise tagging, like CodeKyuubi mentioned but monitoring misuse of tags is fairly easy once you notice some kind of pattern. Otherwise...tags like "white bed sheet" are alarming from the get-go.
Anyway, this topic will eventually come up again, it did so in the past at least. During the top tagger time I've never/rarely seen someone complain about sniping. The issue was overtagging which ended in tagging wars. The latter is actually much easier to deal with because we do have a tagging guideline. I trade this against toxic sniping and toxic behavior every time.
If there is no such rule, it will only get worse until everyone in the site just hits submit immediately without any tags added, and possibly in the future the uploader will even cease to tag the tagless post because there are users who copy their tags upon being hit with a duplicate submission and add it to the post.
Tagless submissions have only recently happened with posts that have children, although there are very rare cases where it happens to posts that are fresh to the site, they are not done consistently unlike the former. Personally I never mind post sniping. However, the recent activity has crossed a fine line from what I believe is fair. It only takes a click, copy and paste from an existing post to completely tag your parent submission. There are no other reason as to why this action is being taken other than the user just wanting to accomplish imaginary property of the post, or to annoy other users.
As for the topic of returning Top Tagger, I can never decide out of my neutral stance towards it. For one I believe it accomplished its purpose because this gives all credits to the artist and removes "property" of the post to the user, this is what I assume as the aim for nameless uploading. But it also accomplished the unwanted purpose of promoting sniping.
I meant to ask,if someone submits without tagging, can Danbooru be programmed to simply reject the post?
Of course that means 10 general tags and I forget that does not count character, series, etc...but if there is a problem with under-tagging or no-tagging, would this deter that sort of thing?
g3gen said:
I meant to ask,if someone submits without tagging, can Danbooru be programmed to simply reject the post?
Of course that means 10 general tags and I forget that does not count character, series, etc...but if there is a problem with under-tagging or no-tagging, would this deter that sort of thing?
It would certainly deter posting scenery and still life images, not to mention text only pages. It's impossible to enforce an arbitrary minimum number of tags on uploads where there simply aren't that many things to tag.