Danbooru

The Great Fate Character Retagging Project

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Alternate identities, genderswaps, and other derivatives

If a character has alternate identities or forms which are visually distinct, these are tagged as well. Use the official name, or if there is none, the agreed-upon fan referent. Alternate forms may be spoilers, so be careful when tagging. Depending on the situation, the tag for the regular identity may be used with the alternate identity as well. Alternate identity tags may be character-type or general-type; again, it depends on the situation.

We tag visual identities for the sake of searching, merging character tags runs counter to that, especially with visual identities that aren't easily tagged with general tags such as your Imaginary Around example.

That said, upon further thought I've realized miyu_edelfelt magical_girl does the job just fine for that particular case.

Kikimaru said:

+1 to nuking some implications

Saber Alter is tricksy though.

Saber Alter needs to still implicate Saber, because they're not just both Artoria, they're both the same Artoria (plus or minus Grail corruption). But very distinctly alternate-universe version of Artoria like Heroine X and Lancer Artoria probably shouldn't implicate to the original Saber. Likewise I'd favor not having Jeanne Alter (who's a copy of Jeanne rather than a version of her) implicate to Jeanne.

remove implication artoria_pendragon_alter_(fate/grand_order) -> saber_alter
remove implication artoria_pendragon_lancer_(fate/grand_order) -> saber
remove implication cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) -> lancer
remove implication elizabeth_bathory_(brave)_(fate) -> lancer_(fate/extra_ccc)
remove implication elizabeth_bathory_(halloween)_(fate) -> lancer_(fate/extra_ccc)
remove implication gilgamesh_(caster)_(fate) -> gilgamesh
remove implication gilles_de_rais_(fate/grand_order) -> caster_(fate/zero)
remove implication gorgon_(fate) -> rider
remove implication ishtar_(fate/grand_order) -> toosaka_rin
remove implication jeanne_alter -> ruler_(fate/apocrypha)
remove implication jeanne_alter_(santa_lily)_(fate) -> jeanne_alter
remove implication medusa_(lancer)_(fate) -> rider
remove implication sakata_kintoki_rider_(fate/grand_order) -> sakata_kintoki_(fate/grand_order)
remove implication tamamo_cat_(fate/grand_order) -> caster_(fate/extra)
remove implication saber_alter -> saber
remove implication saber_lily -> saber
remove implication heroine_x -> saber
remove implication heroine_x_(alter) -> heroine_x
remove implication saber_bride -> saber_extra
remove implication santa_alter -> saber_alter
remove implication jeanne_alter -> ruler_(fate/apocrypha)
remove implication jeanne_alter_(santa_lily)_(fate) -> jeanne_alter
remove implication dark_sakura -> matou_sakura
remove implication ereshkigal_(fate/grand_order) -> toosaka_rin
remove implication ishtar_(fate/grand_order) -> toosaka_rin
remove implication emiya_shirou_(prisma_illya) -> emiya_shirou

Link to request

Searches have become a clusterfuck. See above and topic #14155.

These are all variants minus the swimsuit versions. Story and fanart just treat them as character+swimsuit.

There's some others I didn't include as well:
li_shuwen_(fate/grand_order) -> assassin_(fate/extra): The only difference is the spear.
kaleido_ruby -> toosaka_rin: Rin in magical girl cosplay.
saber_venus -> saber_extra: Nero with a powerup
emiya_kiritsugu_(assassin) -> emiya_kiritsugu: unlike Emiya, there's no fundamental difference as a character.
irisviel_von_einzbern_(caster) -> irisviel_von_einzbern: As above.
limited/zero_over -> emiya_shirou: Since it's a CE it only counts as a costume
female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> assassin_(fate/zero): FZ Hassan is many in one, so they all oughta count for an umbrella tag, at least.
heroine_z -> heroine_x: Just a recolor and random enemy (and further saberface joke)

emiya_alter has no implications, btw.

EDIT: This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 60 days.

EDIT: The bulk update request #1211 (forum #132950) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.

Updated by DanbooruBot

KyteM said:

remove implication cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) -> lancer
remove implication elizabeth_bathory_(brave)_(fate) -> lancer_(fate/extra_ccc)
remove implication elizabeth_bathory_(halloween)_(fate) -> lancer_(fate/extra_ccc)
remove implication gilgamesh_(caster)_(fate) -> gilgamesh
remove implication sakata_kintoki_rider_(fate/grand_order) -> sakata_kintoki_(fate/grand_order)
remove implication saber_alter -> saber
remove implication saber_lily -> saber
remove implication heroine_x -> saber
remove implication heroine_x_(alter) -> heroine_x
remove implication saber_bride -> saber_extra
remove implication santa_alter -> saber_alter
remove implication dark_sakura -> matou_sakura
remove implication emiya_shirou_(prisma_illya) -> emiya_shirou

Link to request

-1. They're either way too obviously the parent character tag, or the tag exists merely to represent a known persona of the parent character tag. Trying to separate these seems to be rather absurd to propose.

remove implication jeanne_alter_(santa_lily)_(fate) -> jeanne_alter

Visually it seems rather obvious one is a "younger" version of the other, so this proposal seems odd.

remove implication artoria_pendragon_alter_(fate/grand_order) -> saber_alter
remove implication artoria_pendragon_lancer_(fate/grand_order) -> saber
remove implication gilles_de_rais_(fate/grand_order) -> caster_(fate/zero)
remove implication gorgon_(fate) -> rider
remove implication jeanne_alter -> ruler_(fate/apocrypha)
remove implication jeanne_alter_(santa_lily)_(fate) -> jeanne_alter
remove implication medusa_(lancer)_(fate) -> rider
remove implication tamamo_cat_(fate/grand_order) -> caster_(fate/extra)
remove implication jeanne_alter -> ruler_(fate/apocrypha)

These seem different enough or the characters are canonically defined in a way where they could be treated as independent characters.

remove implication ishtar_(fate/grand_order) -> toosaka_rin

I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but her physical body is Rin's from my understanding and visually it seems pretty clear of it being a derivative.

remove implication ereshkigal_(fate/grand_order) -> toosaka_rin

Similar as the previous, though she is more different than Ishtar in comparison to the original. Although blonde hair isn't unnatural for Rin (see: Toosaka_Rin Fate/Extra blonde_hair), though that is also apparently a relative of Rin's (with the same name?) and not the same character the Toosaka_Rin tag is intended for.

I forget which topic it was, but I recall having proposed that in the case of Saber it may be worthwhile creating a catchall parent tag above the current Saber tag and change how the other tags branch off, so that the more visually similar are chained, but all variants are tied under a parent tag for being the same person.

Example:
artoria_pendragon_(fate) <- artoria_pendragon_lancer_(fate/grand_order) <- artoria_pendragon_alter_(fate/grand_order)
artoria_pendragon_(fate) <- saber <- saber_alter <- santa_alter

-alternative scheme-
artoria_pendragon_(fate) <- artoria_pendragon_lancer_(fate/grand_order)
artoria_pendragon_(fate) <- saber <- saber_lily
artoria_pendragon_(fate) <- saber_alter <- santa_alter

This could potentially be used for other characters in the franchise/series where necessary.

NWF Renim said:

I forget which topic it was, but I recall having proposed that in the case of Saber it may be worthwhile creating a catchall parent tag above the current Saber tag and change how the other tags branch off, so that the more visually similar are chained, but all variants are tied under a parent tag for being the same person.

This could potentially be used for other characters in the franchise/series where necessary.

Big +1 to this, as removing all these implications would make it so that there is no way to search for all variants of a character.

(?) remove implication master_artoria -> saber

Flandre5carlet said:

Big +1 to this, as removing all these implications would make it so that there is no way to search for all variants of a character.

Implications makes it only worse and complicated and you will still be able to search for all variants of the character if the request is approved.

NWF_Renim said:

-1. They're either way too obviously the parent character tag, or the tag exists merely to represent a known persona of the parent character tag. Trying to separate these seems to be rather absurd to propose.

KyteM's proposition is the only viable solution to this menace, why should it not be separated? We could use that very same argument that separating things is pointless and that everything on Danbooru should have one tag only. When I'm searching for Saber, I don't want to see a lonely Saber Alter in a picture, I also don't want to filter Saber Alter because she looks absolutely gorgeous with Saber and other characters in group photos.

Updated

mj1234 said:

(?) remove implication master_artoria -> saber

Implications makes it only worse and complicated and you will still be able to search for all variants of the character if the request is approved.

He's agreeing with you, dudemeister.

KyteM's proposition is the only viable solution to this menace, why should it not be separated? We could use that very same argument that separating things is pointless and that everything on Danbooru should have one tag only.

Umm? Some implications make sense as they're just variations of characters. We're just ironing which ones are variations and which ones can wholly be considered separate from one another.

Like, Swimsuit Tamamo -> Caster (fate/extra) makes sense since she's just in a blue bikini among some other things, but others, not so much. That's just an example, by the way.

Mikaeri said:

He's agreeing with you, dudemeister.

You should re-read it.

Mikaeri said:

Umm? Some implications make sense as they're just variations of characters. We're just ironing which ones are variations and which ones can wholly be considered separate from one another.

Like, Swimsuit Tamamo -> Caster (fate/extra) makes sense since she's just in a blue bikini among some other things, but others, not so much. That's just an example, by the way.

Quite literally every character in KyteM's request are variations that should not have implications for million reasons. When I look at Jeanne, I don't want to see pictures of a lonely Jeanne Alter, get it now? This is a big mess and I don't know why you're having such a difficult time to understand it.

Updated

mj1234 said:

You should re-read it.

Quite literally every character in KyteM's request are variations that should not have implications for million reasons. When I look at Jeanne, I don't want to see pictures of a lonely Jeanne Alter, get it now? This is a big mess and I don't know why you're having such a difficult time to understand it.

First off, if you want to be rude, there are better places to do it, alright? topic #6690. If you want to insinuate about how you can't fathom someone not understanding what you do, maybe you should take a look at yourself first.

Second off, I did read it. What NWF is proposing is a system where all variants of a character are blanketed under a single tag (let's just say the character's true name). I imagine it'd work out better than the current "chain of implications" we have right now. It makes more sense in case someone does want to do a search for all variations of a character, without having to search for every single one at once.

You're new here, I get it. But get off your high horse -- you are not in a position to say the shit you are right now.

Updated

Searches are a problem that can be solved afterwards through less clusterfucky methods. Normalizing the tag names, such that wildcard searches work, is one. Adding an umbrella tag is another.

NWF_Renim said:

-1. They're either way too obviously the parent character tag, or the tag exists merely to represent a known persona of the parent character tag. Trying to separate these seems to be rather absurd to propose.

I don't disagree, except on the saberface point. Lily, Alter and MHXA are more than just "personas", they're independent characters on their own right. MHX is, ironically, not quite so.

Visually it seems rather obvious one is a "younger" version of the other, so this proposal seems odd.

Visually yes, but there's an entire plotline about how JASL came to be and how she's separate from the big Jeannes. This plot is why she's often paired with Jack and NR, incidentally. It's just as different as mini Medu is from big Medu. I'm trying to be as consistent as possible here.

I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but her physical body is Rin's from my understanding and visually it seems pretty clear of it being a derivative.

Similar as the previous, though she is more different than Ishtar in comparison to the original. Although blonde hair isn't unnatural for Rin (see: Toosaka_Rin Fate/Extra blonde_hair), though that is also apparently a relative of Rin's (with the same name?) and not the same character the Toosaka_Rin tag is intended for.

Visually yes, but they're still different characters with different personalities and interactions. It boils down to whether you include non-visual elements in the distinction.
On the other hand, unlike, say, JASL, Ishtar's Rin-ness has been used in works for example pairing her with Emiya, so dunno.

mj1234 said:

Implications makes it only worse and complicated and you will still be able to search for all variants of the character if the request is approved.

No, if all of these de implications went through without the creation of a blanket tag that regroups all of the "variants" of a character, then it would be impossible to search for all of them at once like it currently is.
I support the deimplication since the reasons make sense, but I also support the creation of an umbrella tag for all Sabers, all Jeannes, etc.

Mikaeri said:
First off, if you want to be rude, there are better places to do it, alright? topic #6690. If you want to insinuate about how you can't fathom someone not understanding what you do, maybe you should take a look at yourself first.

That's funny, considering you're the one resorting to name calling.

Mikaeri said:
You're new here, I get it. But get off your high horse -- you are not in a position to say the shit you are right now.

I've been here for quite some time but noticing your lack of arguments, immense projecting and ironic attitude, I'm going to say you're a pretty awful shitposter.

KyteM said:

I don't disagree, except on the saberface point. Lily, Alter and MHXA are more than just "personas", they're independent characters on their own right. MHX is, ironically, not quite so.

Going to disagree with you on Lily and Alter. As for MHXA that was an error on my part leaving her in that set and I had originally intended to not include her on the list of those I disagreed with. Although from what I read she's also quite a gag character making further fun of the Saber derivatives.

A higher level umbrella tag and reshuffling the implications might be the best approach to this, as even if there is greater division between some variants and others, in the end they're still all the same person. The characters are still the same people, but in some cases placed under different settings. As the same character and general same appearances it would make sense to link them.

As for changes in appearance by age, as far as tagging goes I do not believe we consider that a big enough change to warrant a new independent tag in most cases, and that such characters usually still fall under their respective parent/umbrella character tags (usually with some dependent tag or other tag for better narrowing search results). Given that, it really wouldn't be unreasonable having most of these implicate some umbrella tag.

Mikaeri and mj1234, you both need to calm down and keep a more civil tone.

mj1234, I understand you're quite motivated and strongly pushing for the outcome you want, but I do think it isn't reasonable for all of these cases to remove all their ties. Many of these cases are clearly derivative forms of the same character, so cutting all ties and having no umbrella tag is just as detrimental to those searching posts as having them tied together poorly (which seems to be the current issue).

NWF_Renim said:

A higher level umbrella tag and reshuffling the implications might be the best approach to this, as even if there is greater division between some variants and others, in the end they're still all the same person. The characters are still the same people, but in some cases placed under different settings. As the same character and general same appearances it would make sense to link them.

As for changes in appearance by age, as far as tagging goes I do not believe we consider that a big enough change to warrant a new independent tag in most cases, and that such characters usually still fall under their respective parent/umbrella character tags (usually with some dependent tag or other tag for better narrowing search results). Given that, it really wouldn't be unreasonable having most of these implicate some umbrella tag.

I'm in favor of this, but more specifically the alternate, second scheme proposed in forum #132967. As for my thoughts on Lily (among other characters that are 'derived' from similar plotlines), although it is true that the implication to Jeanne Alter does make sense, it feels as if it's only tangentially to most users. So again, scheme 2.

Just a question though, if this were to be done then what should be general naming scheme for this then? Going by the last part in forum #132967 we'd be going by the character's true name? artoria_pendragon_(fate), jeanne_d'arc_(fate), tamamo_no_mae_(fate), elizabeth_bathory_(fate), etc... And understandably there may be some potential conflicts with already existing characters that are qualified with the FGO copyright.

Might make it easier to tag characters in the future too, since on pixiv a LOT of works are tagged by true names. Sakura Saber, for example, is tagged Okita Souji so ubiquitously on pixiv that I've included it in there as a translated tag (even if it isn't always the bonafide historical figure). Same goes for Saber Extra and Nero Claudius.

Mikaeri and mj1234, you both need to calm down and keep a more civil tone.

I'm certainly comparatively young to the rest of the staff here, but I've been on the internet too long to respond to obvious flamebaiting. Although I will take being a "pretty awful shitposter" as a point of praise. ( ̄▽ ̄)

I'd go with the second scheme with two revisions:
1) no more than two steps of implication, because it gets messy really fast (see Lancer Alter)
2) artoria_pendragon_(fate) sounds like a tag for a specific character rather than an umbrella tag. While this is not an immediate concern, I do believe the naming scheme for fate character tags needs to be reworked, and would rather avoid having to so extra work in the future. (for example, when renaming saber)
Unfortunately I haven't quite figured out a good name for the umbrella tag. Dunno, artoria_pendragon_(fate_characters)?

Updated

This is going to become more important going forward with the new batch of servants from the Nocturnal Castle set. Already those characters have dueling tags with both their real names and their class titles.

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