Mysterio006 said: I guess we're getting more torn clothes to make up for the last couple of fights.
I'll say, particularly seeing how the fight with Iku, Yuugi and Komachi did not have as much barely covered breasts as one might expect. Still haven't beaten Kanako's record for near-toplessness.
Well, it was a Final vs EX boss match fight with those two.
More seriously, considering that Mookou let's herself get in the face regularly as training, she has a higher pain threshold than most. Add in that, what with her and Kaguya doing their fight-to-the-death nightly she has a lot of combat experience going for her, and she's a very strong opponent. Okuu mainly has sheer power going for her. A ridiculous amount of power, but just not enough to make a difference here.
hammertyme said: Wow, what a load of garbage. Rig it more, Hitomoji.
If Reimu and Yuyuko actually lose, we won't need more proof. Nazrin may be clever as much as she want, she and Shizua simply won't be able to make up for the difference in pure power. Tenshi pretty much proved that brains aren't enough.
That was a neat fight and all, but I get the feeling that Hitomoji doesn't know what to do with half the characters. Look at Koishi in this fight and Mystia in the last.
Oh, and to those disappointed with this outcome, it could be worse. At least your favorite team lost legitimately and didn't get taken out in the second round with a comedic gag victory.
OK I suddenly feel really really bad for.... ::looks back to the match lineup:: Reisen and Tokiko. If Yukari wants to save face after this one she's going to have to wipe those two off the map within her match's first millisecond. On the plus side we will get to see Lyrica sitting back sipping tea watching the show with or without a horrified expression on her face.
Unlike a certain other series, this allows Mokou to play to her full strengths, among which is battle of attrition. It wasn't so much stage numbers but a matter of experience. For all we know Koishi if she wasn't KOed would have been hiding somewhere in case of a Double KO.
Though the moment Ran went down was when the match tilted in Mokou's favor as just raw power alone isn't exactly enough to beat her (didn't exactly stop me from hoping otherwise)
megaolix said: If Reimu and Yuyuko actually lose, we won't need more proof. Nazrin may be clever as much as she want, she and Shizua simply won't be able to make up for the difference in pure power. Tenshi pretty much proved that brains aren't enough.
Brains alone no, but the general ability level of Nazrin and Shizuha is higher (seeing how there's no sickly little girl on their team and they're not up against anyone known for their durability)
But power alone isn't enough as we also saw early on, but rather a nice balance.
And there's the matter of unconventional uses for an ability (Hina's spin defense, etc)
... Brains alone no, but the general ability level of Nazrin and Shizuha is higher (seeing how there's no sickly little girl on their team and they're not up against anyone known for their durability) ...
I don't understand why people expect a low-intelligent bird with nothing but insanely destructive power is going to win against an immortal who's been at the center of massacres for centuries. It's like giving a kindergarten kid a broadsword and asking her to fight a battle-hardened veteran equipped with a dagger. And this opinion doesn't stem solely from my love for Mokou.
Anyway, that was pretty intense and hot. I'm looking forward to the next match.
This was a pretty lame turnaround. After being hit full force like that by Okuu's attack, nobody, not even an immortal, should be able to hit her back at full strength in a position like that where the momentum is against her. But then again this is Touhou so I guess pure strength and brawn is only a thing of magic...
That, and Ran's sacrifice, which could have served as some good foreshadowing for the fight, was completely pointless and wasted. I expected much more meaning in a play like that from Ran given her intelligence.
zangalus2005 said: not even an immortal, should be able to hit her back at full strength in a position like that where the momentum is against her.
1)She used danmaku. 2)Momentum was against her only when she was using "eternal bird -flying phoenix-", She was riding with the momentum the moment the headbutt collided.
I won't say that I'm annoyed that Mokou and Koishi won (okay, I am, but that's only because I'm an Utsuho fanboy), but more that I'm annoyed at the battle itself.
I've complained about it before, but this fight was ended way too quickly. Three of these characters were Ex-bosses, who are known for having absurdly long fights in the games, yet they were all (except Mokou, who's an obvious exception) taken out in a few blows.
Had this always been a "one blow and you're dead" kind of doujin, that would have been fine, but Tewi, not famed for her physical strength, was still standing after taking several blows from Yuugi. Oni are known to break mountains with their fists, and they call Yuugi the Strong! And yet Ran, Shikigami of Yukari, is taken out that quickly? The pieces just doesn't add up.
Add in the fact that we don't really see Koishi do anything and don't get to see any of Utsuho's signature moves, and this whole fight felt lackluster. This was probably the most epic setup of them all, and it's over just like that!
Well, we know who the mangaka is a fan of. If a human can take out a Kyuubi shikigami in one blow, and then a creature that can unleash fire hotter then the sun in another.
cd_young said: Well, we know who the mangaka is a fan of. If a human can take out a Kyuubi shikigami in one blow, and then a creature that can unleash fire hotter then the sun in another.
Power =/= Endurance/durability. Being able to launch miniature suns does not prevent a good blow to the head from knocking her out.
I'll buy that Utsuho lost to Mokou, it was a fair loss no matter which side I was cheering for. All-or-Nothing from the start is Utsuho's style. I'm only bummed because Utsuho is the only boss above Stage 3 to get on my top 10 list so I don't have much hope for a favorite of mine winning in the end.
I am also annoyed that Ran and Koishi are nowhere in sight though. Both of them should have taken more than one hit. I'm thinking this whole match was set up to eliminate as many high level bosses from the tournament as it could and the author didn't plan the fight as thoroughly as it should have been planned.
Brains alone no, but the general ability level of Nazrin and Shizuha is higher (seeing how there's no sickly little girl on their team and they're not up against anyone known for their durability)
But power alone isn't enough as we also saw early on, but rather a nice balance.
And there's the matter of unconventional uses for an ability (Hina's spin defense, etc)
No offense, but I sure as hell don't see how Nazrin and Shizuha's abilities are going to help them. Even if they could find an unconventinnal use of them, we're still talking about Reimu and Yuyuko here. They're going down.
Beside, I'm pretty sure everyone here want to see a Reimu&Yuyuko vs Mima&Yuuka fight.
Went a bit back to read the whole fight in one go rather than each page in several days: I do agree that Koishi and Ran were taken out too fast. I don't like judging power levels on their stage number... actually I think in this fight their power levels are meaningless because all of them are insanely strong, effectively nullifying each other. Besides, the duration of boss fights do not signify true power levels but rather their willpower. The playable characters' 'lives' are also not their lives but how willing they are to continue, as seen in Fairy Wars system of Cirno's motivation. So basically, the higher-level boss fights are long not because they're physically strong but because they are still willing to continue fighting. Mokou for example seems to be really really weak physically, seeing how she 'loses' each time her spellcard is broken. (The conventional maple-leaf effect is shown. In normal bosses this means being incapacitated, and absolutely no boss does that after just one spellcard, not even stage 1 bosses.) So she finally decides to stop playing when she thinks she had enough.
As for Ran going out, she was hit with fire, and seriously, fire isn't something that just gives you some tan. But Koishi... I don't even remember when and why she was taken out, given the above (canon) theory of willpower and just how long she lasts in-game. Maybe she blacked out or something, but that's not up to the reader to accept it.
So yeah, I do agree that the fight's structure was rather weak in terms of how Koishi and Ran were so easily incapacitated.
megaolix said: No offense, but I sure as hell don't see how Nazrin and Shizuha's abilities are going to help them. Even if they could find an unconventinnal use of them, we're still talking about Reimu and Yuyuko here. They're going down.
Beside, I'm pretty sure everyone here want to see a Reimu&Yuyuko vs Mima&Yuuka fight.
By that virtue then Meiling/Patchouli and Kanako/Hina shouldn't have won their matches... yet they did. And there's the possibility of stupid mistakes (See Iku and Tewi)
As far as Ran and Koishi?
Ran-Intentionally got into point blank range of a high powered attack of Mokou's. Even with a power advantage, hitting by a point blank attack like that will still HURT.
And Koishi is pretty weak for an EX boss, especially physically. Though it's hard to tell if she recovered or not due to the nature of her ability.
Nicklance said: Not sure why so much argument when the mangaka simply wanted to draw out the story according to what he wants. And we're reading this for free.
Let's just enjoy a bit of fun shall we?
Under normal circumstances, I would have agreed with the last sentence, but your comment does not give enough reason to conclude that the artist is above criticism.
Don't mistake me, despite what I commented above, I'm enjoying this series greatly and don't really have any complaints. But that still doesn't mean there is no need for criticism. In fact, I would have agreed if the "we're reading this for free" sentence was not present.
Lick_King said: Under normal circumstances, I would have agreed with the last sentence, but your comment does not give enough reason to conclude that the artist is above criticism.
Don't mistake me, despite what I commented above, I'm enjoying this series greatly and don't really have any complaints. But that still doesn't mean there is no need for criticism. In fact, I would have agreed if the "we're reading this for free" sentence was not present.
Criticisms on drawing style, pacing or other technical details are fine. But should people really be piling up on each other about who should or should not win and how they win or lose or how each reader's interpretation of the characters has to be the one factor in deciding how this doujin unfolds?
Look we all have our favorites and our own self-generated system of determining the pecking order of the Touhou girls, but we aren't the ones writing, or drawing for the matter. It just irks me when some of the comments throughout this series just smacks of "the author's choices suck, mine is better and he should follow it."
Nicklance said: Criticisms on drawing style, pacing or other technical details are fine. But should people really be piling up on each other about who should or should not win and how they win or lose or how each reader's interpretation of the characters has to be the one factor in deciding how this doujin unfolds?
Look we all have our favorites and our own self-generated system of determining the pecking order of the Touhou girls, but we aren't the ones writing, or drawing for the matter. It just irks me when some of the comments throughout this series just smacks of "the author's choices suck, mine is better and he should follow it."
I originally posted a very long comment about how you misunderstood my point and my opinion, but I think there is no reason to lengthen the comment wars. I will just back down quietly.
I'm pretty sure Mokou "ate" the phoenix herself (note the brackets). Your argument about "only immortal human" there is invalid. I personally rate Mokou at the same level with Okuu, and find nothing strange about this fight's speed. One blow from each of them can take the other out right away. Mokou proved that by getting rid of Ran in 1 hit. I'd like people not to judge Mokou as "just an immortal human" anymore. I know she is far more powerful than that. Anyone has doubts may do some research on Phoenix (both Japanese and Chinese) to see what it can do and you'll see why Mokou is the EX boss.
ForteGVN said: I'm pretty sure Mokou "ate" the phoenix herself (note the brackets). Your argument about "only immortal human" there is invalid. I personally rate Mokou at the same level with Okuu, and find nothing strange about this fight's speed. One blow from each of them can take the other out right away. Mokou proved that by getting rid of Ran in 1 hit. I'd like people not to judge Mokou as "just an immortal human" anymore. I know she is far more powerful than that. Anyone has doubts may do some research on Phoenix (both Japanese and Chinese) to see what it can do and you'll see why Mokou is the EX boss.
Nothing personal, but I've seen nothing to show that she has taken in the power of a phoenix. With her being immortal and manipulating fire, it seems more like she just personifies a phoenix...not being an actual phoenix. As far I remember, the phoenix thing is still in speculation without any genuine proof from ZUN.
^ just my logic. Because obviously a "mere human" couldn't personify a phoenix. Hourai Elixir gave her immortality, not the power to use fire. The only way to have that fire and shoot phoenixes around is to have phoenix's power.
ForteGVN said: ^ just my logic. Because obviously a "mere human" couldn't personify a phoenix. Hourai Elixir gave her immortality, not the power to use fire. The only way to have that fire and shoot phoenixes around is to have phoenix's power.
It is stated that if a human lives long enough, one will start developing powers in Gensokyo universe. It is never comfirmed that Mokou has a phoenix in her/has the power of a phoenix.
Who says humans are supposed to be weak anyway? I'm pretty sure I remember that canonically the average human in Gensokyo is stronger than the average youkai, and that the youkai advantage is superior numbers. Granted, Okuu is far beyond the average youkai, but Mokou's not your average human either.
Yeah, I can't understand people underestimating Mokou just because she's human. She's been alive for over a thousand years and has spent the better part of her existence fighting against youkai and Kaguya. More to the point, even as a non-immortal human she was willing and able to kill a trained soldier to steal the Hourai Elixir from him (presumably it was by surprise but she was still a teenager who killed an adult trained soldier). Her stamina and willpower must be insane simply to keep coming back for more despite dying hundreds if not thousands of times by now. Combine that with the fact that she only once relied on physical strength in this entire fight (her last shot to the back of Okuu's head was one of her Spellcards, not a feat of brute strength), and I see no problems with how she won. She even admitted Okuu's firepower was superior and so resorted to what was basically a magically super-charged rabbit punch!
I will admit this fight was a little too quick for my tastes and it would have been nice to see more from Ran and Koishi, but unfortunately them's the breaks.
Koishi is pretty much an ambush fighter, EX Boss status notwithstanding (Satori are not known for their physical strength, stamina, or durability anyway; in fact, just clearing your mind so they can't read it is enough to make them freak out and die in the old myths), and I have a feeling the author just didn't know what to do with Ran. If he gave her ever ability that kitsune are supposed to have in the legends she'd be broken as hell.
Magus said: Who says humans are supposed to be weak anyway? I'm pretty sure I remember that canonically
That's so wrong I don't even know where you got that from. The average human hasn't got the slightest chance against youkai. Even smallfry like Chen, Rumia and Mystia have physical and mystical abilities which are way out of their league. Humans just don't develop powers on their own. And when they do, only young girls develop mystic abilities anyway according to the mag-net interview, and I don't think the average daughter of a farmer does youkai hunting in her past time. There are some experts who can confront them, but they are everything but average. They either earned those powers through long life, abstinence and so on or were gifted by gods, youkai etc.
If you're talking about endurance, you really have no place to compare Okuu and Ran to Mokou. This is a girl so frail that she literally DIES during battle where the form of combat was explicitly created with the purpose of being non-lethal! It doesn't get more defenseless than Mokou. Okuu's attack should have disintegrated her rather than just knocking the wind out of her for 2 seconds.
Ok, think of it this way. Grab a bowl and put some water in it. Now grab something that can blow a lot of wind at high pressure but only at a small area like a hair dryer or leaf blower. Now blast the bowl with wind from the top. Most likely if the water isn't too much and the power is high enough, you'll reach the bottom of the bowl with the water sticking to the sides.
I forgot where I was going with that but Mokou is immortal.
If you managed to get the idea I was aiming for, good for you. I think I was going to say that the water is still there no matter how much you blow and waiting to deliver a magical judo chop to the back of your head but I'm not sure.
Oh and a quick look at the wiki says that the IN extra stage was the heroines specifically being sent to kill Mokou. Even if that's not the case, after Mokou bragged about her immortality, Reimu at least said that it should be alright for her to go all out. Makes sense that she dies after each spell card in that light. Can't say the same if you pacifist her unless you want to imagine them agreeing that a spell break for Mokou lets the heroines snap her neck.
Hsss, hot...Match overrr!Fujiwara Mokouuuu!!!It's...Tough as it was, one competitor's tactics prevailed:ThmpSsszzzss...No idea how many deaths this counts for....finished!!!HrroaarrrTruly a hot contest!!