This does bring a smile to my face. Imagine losing more soldiers in under a year than USA lost during the entirety of Vietnam.
Yeah, imagine all those people who could participate in economy, advance the science, engage in creative works just die for their corrupt regime, while at the same time their death means nothing, because, as they say in Russia: "Бабы новых нарожают" (the women will bear others). I don't understand what you can smile about - wars are not waged to the last soldier, wars end by leaders (old ones or new ones). Moreover, there is literally nothing to smile about with comparisons with Vietnam... I want to remind you that despite all the losses (even if they are smaller in comparison), the United States and allies lost the war. Putin's regime can throw cannon fodder into war for a very long time, since they does not care about their population and they really think that there's too many men, too many people making too many problems.
Hey, if it means death russians, it's the regime's loss not the world's. Funny that you mentioned that wars are not won by number of casualties, but ignoring the advances of recovered territories, meanwhile what does Russia has to show for it? A few streets in bakhmut, for dozens of Wagner fertilizing the soil when they keep parroting it will fall in two weeks.
Hey, if it means death russians, it's the regime's loss not the world's.
No, it means world's losses. We're not living under some autarkies, we're all in the global economy. Every death, every loss means consequences not only for states, but for the whole world. Did you know that one of the developers of the game S.T.A.L.K.E.R. died in Ukraine? Is this a loss only for Ukraine or not? Do you think that among these hundred of thousands of Russians killed there were no similar talents? Oh, how about this: anti-slavery activist and a leader of Russian-based "The Alternative Movement" has gone missing in the Kharkiv region. Is this the regime's loss if the regime actively opposed the activities of this organization and in general is only one step away from declaring them a "foreign agent", but after the death of their leader, they were left with almost no funding? How strange, I always thought to myself that modern slavery has an international character and has the property to export itself. Oh, and by the way, do you happen to live in Europe? Well, or at least you know why the world has not completely fenced off from the Russian Federation, this terrorist state? It turns out that there are resources in the Russian Federation - not only gas and oil, but also valuable ores and food. Guess what happens when workers stop mining, stop pumping oil, stop working in the fields, and instead fertilize foreign land? And how can you forget about the "brain drain" - yesterday you studied to be a doctor or a neuroscientist and wanted to emigrate from this cold Russia, and today all your education turned out to be in vain and your cold corpse is lying in a ditch since you have been mobilized. Is this really Russia's loss?
Arufahoru said:
...Funny that you mentioned that wars are not won by number of casualties, but ignoring the advances of recovered territories, meanwhile what does Russia has to show for it? A few streets in bakhmut, for dozens of Wagner fertilizing the soil when they keep parroting it will fall in two weeks.
It doesn't matter. Russian's regime doesn't care. If necessary, they really can fight to the last Russian and retreat (still continuing the war) all the way to Vladivostok. If Ukraine wants to win the war, let them aim at generals, politicians, war hawks. There is no need to kill poor criminals who have been seduced by freedom and money - just kill Yevgeny Prigozhin. It makes little or even no sense to kill individual soldiers - finally kill the neo-nazis from the DSHRG Rusich, kill the corrupt generals. In the end, kill Putin, Kiselyov, Solovyov, Simonyan and other bastards. Kill the oligarchs sponsoring the war. Yes, yes, I know, they can not kill, but arrest, but it is much more difficult. And I doubt any of the people I listed deserve anything less than a life sentence/death penalty. They send people to the slaughterhouse and profit from it, they brainwash the population with the idea that all Russian war crimes from Bucha to Mariupol and rocket attacks on residential buildings are just provocations and Ukraine itself does this on orders from the US State Department, and Russia just defends itself (this could be a quote, literally), they threaten the world with nuclear strikes. And it is much easier to be proud of the murders of a powerful minority, big names, than thousands of yesterday's workers, whose most serious crime was (if it was) only a couple of murders, not genocide, propaganda of aggressive war and waging of illegal war.
"Why did the Allies ruthlessly kill so many German soldiers? If they only wanted to end the war, they could have just killed Hitler."
And they tried to kill Hitler. Repeatedly. Like many other high officials. Long before the rockets and drones. Moreover, Benito Mussolini was shot on the same day he was discovered, without any trial although in 1943 he was arrested by the king's loyalists and was released by german paratroopers. And don't pretendlike it's nothappening now.
Dead Russians will never not be funny. Keep coping
How about dead ukrainians? Maybe dead jews are funny too? Maybe we all will laugh at the 70 millions died in World War II? Well, you know, in order not to look like damn humanists. Yes, I deny the fun of killing masses of people of all kinds. And I am seriously asking, what is there to smile about? Is it sadism? Misanthropy? Or just pure irrational hatred?
Yeah, imagine all those people who could participate in economy, advance the science, engage in creative works just die for their corrupt regime, while at the same time their death means nothing, because, as they say in Russia: "Бабы новых нарожают" (the women will bear others). I don't understand what you can smile about - wars are not waged to the last soldier, wars end by leaders (old ones or new ones). Moreover, there is literally nothing to smile about with comparisons with Vietnam... I want to remind you that despite all the losses (even if they are smaller in comparison), the United States and allies lost the war. Putin's regime can throw cannon fodder into war for a very long time, since they does not care about their population and they really think that there's too many men, too many people making too many problems.
Maybe the moskals shouldn't start wars with their neighbours, then.
They can't, they will face consequences as traitors or even killed on sight. Just like Zelenskyy did with their average male non-military citizens.
Who's going to stop them? If the whole lot collectively decided to 'fuck that shit' and shoot their warhawk superior officers, who's going to reprimand them?
Maybe the moskals shouldn't start wars with their neighbours, then.
We didn't. Even though I literally moskal (well, I was born in Moscow oblast), since 2014 I opposed the invasion of Putin's regime - I went to the March of Peace at 2014, I went to the March of Peace at 2015 (and was detained too), I even had to run across the border (through the barbed wire) and apply for political asylum in Estonia in 2016 (otherwise I would be in jail right now... or dead). No one asked the Russians if they wanted war - the regime simply took and put everyone before the fact that war just started. And now either you are supporting the war, or you are a "national traitor". If everything depended on me and the government really represented me (it does not represent, they choose themselves and falsify the elections), there would be no Anschluss of Crimea, no support for Yanukovych, no support for separatism, no illegal war.
However, this does not answer my original question in any way. Just because someone invaded a country doesn't mean they're not human and they deserve to be killed. Soviets and allies did think that germans should be punished for raping their women, and they raped in return. Of course, not everyone did such practises, and the administations, the normal officers and the soldiers were disgusted by such practices, as well as mockery of corpses, mockery of families who had lost their breadwinners and other dances on bones of people. Many ordinary Germans who were soldiers and officers in the German armed forces were not even punished in any way, unlike actual murderers, propagandists and war criminals, including those who did think that it's OK to rape German women.
rom_collector said:
The one that started it...
There is more than just one. Way more. But not everyone.
bunkhead said:
Maybe the cannon fodder should turn around and go home then.
That would be the best solution, but in reality it is way, way harder than the assassination of the Putin's clique, which some people seem to laugh at. There are 2 millions of soldiers in Russia, convincing even part of them to turn around is a very expensive, long, dangerous and thankless job. And even if that would be successful, there are internal troops that fight not with external enemies, but with "internal enemies". Black October showed that the authorities are not opposed to shooting at their own people at all.
I met a young adult couple from Ukraine six years ago, we barely know the details about their living in America. All that we knew coming from them is they were some kind of political activists against their government actions, they traveled across all continent very often and they can't turn back to their homeland otherwise they face jail. How do they earn the money and manage to keep moving between countries is still a mistery to us. Haven't heard about them since then.
My point is not everyone is in agreement with their leaders actions. We can't simply call Russians the bad guys and Ukraine the good ones. They are victims of their government's choices.
My point is not everyone is in agreement with their leaders actions. We can't simply call Russians the bad guys and Ukraine the good ones. They are victims of their government's choices.
Ukraine didn't invade Russia. An unverifiable anecdote from six years ago doesn't change that.
I met a young adult couple from Ukraine six years ago, we barely know the details about their living in America. All that we knew coming from them is they were some kind of political activists against their government actions, they traveled across all continent very often and they can't turn back to their homeland otherwise they face jail. How do they earn the money and manage to keep moving between countries is still a mistery to us. Haven't heard about them since then.
My point is not everyone is in agreement with their leaders actions. We can't simply call Russians the bad guys and Ukraine the good ones. They are victims of their government's choices.
I'm going to go to bed mad knowing I can't get my hands on you.
...We can't simply call >Russians< the bad guys and >Ukraine< the >good ones<.
blindVigil said:
>Ukraine< didn't invade >Russia<.
Russia = Russians, Ukraine = Ukrainians? Isn't this a logical fallacy? I am literally saying that I oppose my own (well, "own" is a poor choice of words... more like they think that they own me) government, am I responcible for their actions, сonsidering that I didn't even vote for them? If yes - why? Collective liability?
Russia = Russians, Ukraine = Ukrainians? Isn't this a logical fallacy? I am literally saying that I oppose my own (well, "own" is a poor choice of words... more like they think that they own me) government, am I responcible for their actions, сonsidering that I didn't even vote for them? If yes - why? Collective liability?
I dunno if you're up to date on rom collector's stance on this situation, but everything he says is just to perpetuate his "the Ukrainian people are wrong for defending their land from an invading force" nonsense. Unless you support Putin's invasion of Ukraine, you probably shouldn't be taking his side. Rom collector has repeatedly tried to justify Russian crimes and villify Ukrainian's doing anything other than abandoning their homes or kneeling down to be executed.
I'm not saying all Russian people are bad. What I am saying is that the Russian country is pretty fucking indefensible right now, and the Russian soldiers currently stealing civilian vehicles and executing Ukrainian civilians are fucking monsters. Being at war doesn't justify that shit, especially when its a war THEY started.
He also has a tendency to bring up anecdotes that just so happen to perfectly pertain to literally any topic where everyone else is against him. I wouldn't believe a single damn word he says.
I dunno if you're up to date on rom collector's stance on this situation, but everything he says is just to perpetuate his "the Ukrainian people are wrong for defending their land from an invading force" nonsense. Unless you support Putin's invasion of Ukraine, you probably shouldn't be taking his side. Rom collector has repeatedly tried to justify Russian crimes and villify Ukrainian's doing anything other than abandoning their homes or kneeling down to be executed.
I am not supporting everything they say, and I am picking my own side. I can agree and disagree with something different people say, because even a bad person can make a right statement and a good person can make a wrong statement. I voted down comment #2283114 as well as comment #2281838, because they are two sides of the same coin. I did upvote only comment #2284064 here, since I did see the morally justified commentary in a libertarian way and I know too much "anecdotes" about Ukrainian government - that's why I draw a strict line between Ukrainians and the Ukrainian state. I do support Ukrainian people and their struggle. I do not support this, that with this, that and this by Ukrainian government. And no, it doesn't mean that I support Russian state, I can bring you even more "anecdotes" like this, but about Russia, and even the ones that almost the same.. "Two wrongs don't make a right", as they say.
...the Russian soldiers currently stealing civilian vehicles and executing Ukrainian civilians are fucking monsters. Being at war doesn't justify that shit, especially when its a war THEY started.
See, this is the problem. This is just an abstract image-generalization, which is extremely heterogeneous in reality. You saying that Russian soldiers killing civilians and looting cars, but this is a generalization and not everyone of them doing this. I won't even deny that there are such bastards out there, probably a lot. But there are also soldiers there who were sent to the front against their will, threatened with physical violence and problems with their families. There are those who joined the army out of extreme poverty and debts. There are those who still preserving the dignity of Russian army. I can understand people, saying that they do not feel sorry for marauders and maniacs. But among these 100K killed there surely were the others, different people, who are more difficult to call monsters. And even if we imagine that all 100K people were criminals and maniacs, my previous statements still remain true - their death changes too little, while Russian leadership continues to send cannon fodder to the front. I still don't see any reason to smile about it. Not to mention, no reasons to laugh at their corpses.
Gardares said: You saying that Russian soldiers killing civilians and looting cars, but this is a generalization and not everyone of them doing this ...
Focusing on these anecdotes has nothing to do with the issues at hand and only exist to detract from problem resolution or even realistic discussion of problem resolutions. Trying to validate the semantic, communicative issues between targeted statements and blanket statements has nothing to do with the solutions you seek. Bringing resolution to another person's heart is not going to eliminate the problem. To speak presumptuously, there is a "we" who don't think the Russian soldiers, regardless of what they are doing, have any business being within Ukraine's borders, even the regions that their country says has joined with them. We can't sort these people out from a distance except by the demonizations, oft baseless, occasionally on-point, but those things don't matter. They're the lies we tell ourselves to stay sane in a world that isn't designed for our sanity. Innocence or guilt has nothing to do with it. What we say to ourselves doesn't have anything to do with it. By duty, desertion, or death is how the war will be ended, and, even then, there will still be death seeping out of the seams. No one deserves it, not really, but it will happen all the same. The treaty on which the desired peace is signed will be equally as irrelevant.
I still don't see any reason to smile about it. Not to mention, no reasons to laugh at their corpses.
Gallows humor is never meant to be respectful. It is dismissive entirely to help come to terms with the horror of an inevitable death.
Gallows humor is never meant to be respectful. It is dismissive entirely to help come to terms with the horror of an inevitable death.
vandirej said:
Dead Russians will never not be funny. Keep coping
Is it really the gallows humor in this case? I think it's more like an "evil humor" - cruel mockery, based on negativity and hatred. Not to the state, not to the government, not to the Putin and his clique, but to the Russians in general.
p.s. I understand that I can speak like a fucking vatnik now, but I already had some unpleasant experiences with people and I know that there are people who judge you just because you are Russian. For example, the ultra-patriots of Russia believe that if I am Russian, then I am obliged to support the Russian government, otherwise I am literally a traitor to the Russian nation. Or, for example, I came across people who seriously believed that the entire Russian opposition (literally, everyone) is the same as the Putinists, and that no Russian can be trusted at all. Or, for example, I'm just a member of a group that collects political "howlers", and yes, there are people who really have fun at the most terrible things, like lynch executions with a sledgehammer or genocides.
iridescent_slime said:
This is just the reality of war... The deaths of these Russian soldiers may have been inevitable, but the manner of their deaths is a result of the choices they made...
I think we are talking about different things. I'm talking about "reasons" for laughing and smiling at the corpses, I'm not saying that Russian soldiers are all so innocent and died undeservedly.
But if you seriously justifying smiles and laughter with the phrases like 'these Russians would have died anyway, and they chose the wrong way to die, and this is funny'... then I think it's just awful. I'm sorry, but this is pure evil.
You mean the biolabs, that actually existed, and that Ukraine wants to join NATO, that it pledged it will never do?
I will be very disappointed if this comment gets fewer downvotes than mine.
p.s. Budapest Memorandum and neighborly relations? No, we won't look at it. Myths about "ethnic weapon" and violation of the imperial interests of Pax Russica? Yes, that seems legit (sarcasm).
Budapest Memorandum: violated by the Russian Federation's invasion of Crimea in 2014. It is moot now.
Multiple times from 2014 to this day. Violation in Crimea was the first one, but international agreements do not break due to violations. Moreover, all other signatories (except Russia, of course) of the memorandum fulfill their obligations. At least, more or less.
p.s. I understand that I can speak like a fucking vatnik now, but I already had some unpleasant experiences with people and I know that there are people who judge you just because you are Russian. For example, the ultra-patriots of Russia believe that if I am Russian, then I am obliged to support the Russian government, otherwise I am literally a traitor to the Russian nation.
I mean, that's kinda the problem. Those are the ones currently calling the shots, and those who disagree are (either for lack of will or lack of numbers) not stopping them.
I mean, that's kinda the problem. Those are the ones currently calling the shots, and those who disagree are (either for lack of will or lack of numbers) not stopping them.
Stopping something big is always harder than slowing it down. The opposition has no access to TV, no armies of Kremlin bots, but there are excellent chances of going to jail, being deported or simply being killed if you act too carelessly. Arsonism, rail war, sabotages, сounterpropaganda, persuasions, draft evasion, donating to Ukraine and ukrainian people, fighting with kremlin bots, disruption of government's work, evacuation of non-war-supporting Russians, foreign rallies, even Russian volunteers fighting for Ukraine. There are a lot of work, but apathy and depression are now very common in Russia. Poor people are much more susceptible to authoritarian regimes, and Putin's regime is actively using this. In fact, now a minority of Russian loyalists is fighting minority of Russian oppositionists, with the complete indifference and silence of the majority of Russians. As they say in Russia "I don't know anything, my hut is on the edge", but when their hut falls off the edge or caught in a storm, then suddenly they will have an opinion and it will depend very much on which minority will have which place in the information warfare. The opposition hopes that people will choose the side of those who are against the plutocrats and war hawks... and do a lot to discredit them and sow distrust in the state and in the idea of this invasion.
Long story short, Russians are worthless parasites, and the West has much more to gain from having Ukraine as our friends instead of Russia.
Thank you for another example to my words - obscurantist nationalism. Blind pride in 'nation's achievements' (achievements of individuals, in reality), appropriation of merits and humiliation of other nations. By the way, it's really a bold move to call me worthless parasite just because I'm Russian, but you should know that this violates the community rules.
It doesn't matter who you are, the thing that is important is your discrimination. No matter if you are Latvian, American, Ukrainian, Russian, German or Finnish, the rules here are the same for everyone. In contrast to the laws of nation-states, which favor explicit discrimination for dubious political purposes.
This thread should have been killed sooner. We've passed political discourse into the line of discrimination against Russians and overall toxicity worthy of twitter.
Is there no sense that it's in poor taste, to celebrate the deaths of all these people? Do the people making these posts ever feel even a little bit of shame for the ugly nature of what they're gloating about? Do they just not care?
Is there no sense that it's in poor taste, to celebrate the deaths of all these people? Do the people making these posts ever feel even a little bit of shame for the ugly nature of what they're gloating about? Do they just not care?
That's generally what happens when people become desensitized to death and destruction. Decades of making war out to be either a glorified sports game or some "righteous cause" inevitably skewers people's perception as to the horrors of war. The fact that kids are watching this stuff on Twitter without any supervision only makes it worse. Unless you are actually Russian or Ukrainian, or at least know someone who is, you're likely just in it to watch glorified snuff films.
And of course, some people are going to pull the morality card, which honestly is just for optics. Geo-politics doesn't operate on morality, and this war isn't any different. There's a ton of money, deals, and favors being traded with blood. If there wasn't really any money to be made selling weapons, you think most parties would keep extending the conflict? It's mainly an excuse for both sides to make moves elsewhere. You think the US gives weapon packages purely out of the goodness of its heart? Or that Russia isn't also just using this war as a glorified testing ground for new weapons?
As for the conflict itself. it's tragic but not really surprising from a historical standpoint. Russians and Ukrainians have been killing each other for centuries. From the days of the Cossacks, to WW2 and the present, there's been arguably more animosity then reconciliation between the two. Regardless of whether Russia or Ukraine are in the right, everyone decided to turn an ethnic conflict into a global one. And as much as this argument does get tiresome, both sides have very much participated in war crimes. Russians did end up killing civilians (intentional or otherwise) and looting amenities, but Ukrainians have (bafflingly enough) done similar things to what is their own people and POWs. Regardless of where you stand, you shouldn't be condoning the kneecapping of POWs or bragging about civilians being rounded up and posted on TikTok, especially if they're your fellow people.
Which is why we should be advocating for peace instead of a prolonged conflict. Because it will drag on and kill more innocent people. Because regardless of how this war ends, there is a non-insignificant chance another war will brew again in the future. Best we can do is at least reduce the death toll as much as possible.
This thread should have been killed sooner. We've passed political discourse into the line of discrimination against Russians and overall toxicity worthy of twitter.
This is what happens when you let Real life politics in here. This is an international place and people in here will express such things. You might want to rethink allowing such things on Dabooru in the future or threads like this will happen again.
This is what happens when you let Real life politics in here. This is an international place and people in here will express such things. You might want to rethink allowing such things on Dabooru in the future or threads like this will happen again.
It has always been an international place and it can still be a place where people can discuss current events without being assholes.
It has always been an international place and it can still be a place where people can discuss current events without being assholes.
But will they always be like that when it involves a shooting war between two nations and the bodies are stacking up higher every day. Tell me then, would you be nice to the other side that just shot up your home and killed your friends and family? Wars always beings out assholes. You might have been too young to remember then but I remember the rather unpleasant arguments over the first gulf war.
I am just saying expect this to happen and prepare accordingly.
Stopping something big is always harder than slowing it down. The opposition has no access to TV, no armies of Kremlin bots, but there are excellent chances of going to jail, being deported or simply being killed if you act too carelessly. Arsonism, rail war, sabotages, сounterpropaganda, persuasions, draft evasion, donating to Ukraine and ukrainian people, fighting with kremlin bots, disruption of government's work, evacuation of non-war-supporting Russians, foreign rallies, even Russian volunteers fighting for Ukraine. There are a lot of work, but apathy and depression are now very common in Russia. Poor people are much more susceptible to authoritarian regimes, and Putin's regime is actively using this. In fact, now a minority of Russian loyalists is fighting minority of Russian oppositionists, with the complete indifference and silence of the majority of Russians. As they say in Russia "I don't know anything, my hut is on the edge", but when their hut falls off the edge or caught in a storm, then suddenly they will have an opinion and it will depend very much on which minority will have which place in the information warfare. The opposition hopes that people will choose the side of those who are against the plutocrats and war hawks... and do a lot to discredit them and sow distrust in the state and in the idea of this invasion.
I know that feel, bro:( We will have been being considered as a partners of Huilo's crimes for some decades. It's nothing to do with it.
I know that feel, bro:( We will have been being considered as a partners of Huilo's crimes for some decades. It's nothing to do with it.
I never hated all Germans for the Hitler regime, I never hated all Americans for nuclear bombings, I never hated all Russians for Putin's corruption and aggressive adventurism.
Because I perfectly understand who is to blame. And therefore, I don't understand why any nation should be hated for the actions of their governments. This is a false consciousness that needs to be talked about and corrected, otherwise only ordinary people will be responsible for the actions of governments, while the ruling elites will get off lightly.