And possibly the only way to stop them...^^U Despite Japan national team's tremendous quality (the Yamato Nadeshikos are one of the best squads of the world when it comes to femenine football), the last time they encountered Team USA's femenine squad in a World Cup they got absolutely thrashed (5-2 in the World Cup final no less).
This is a gag image, you shouldn't judge it on artistic quality like it was just another of the couple million "girl with giant boobs out" image clogging this site.
This is clearly a gag referencing a memetic photograph, I can tell that without having the slightest clue about soccer, so the fact that the characters are "drawn on after the background" is just par for the course.
If there are this many moderators who aren't willing to reapprove an image flagged for so meritless a reason, I have to call into question whether or not moderators are getting too timid in questioning when certain people are the ones flagging things.
Is there an option to hide these frivolous flags? It's more than a little bit annoying to go check out a picture and see some stick-in-the-mud's whining highlighted at the top. There's been so many petty ones in the last month, I imagine there's been some kind of incentive recently added for flagging.
This is a gag image, you shouldn't judge it on artistic quality like it was just another of the couple million "girl with giant boobs out" image clogging this site.
This is clearly a gag referencing a memetic photograph, I can tell that without having the slightest clue about soccer, so the fact that the characters are "drawn on after the background" is just par for the course.
If there are this many moderators who aren't willing to reapprove an image flagged for so meritless a reason, I have to call into question whether or not moderators are getting too timid in questioning when certain people are the ones flagging things.
Honestly, we've gotten flags that show that whoever flagged the images have no idea about what those images were referencing like old animes and such, so it's par for the course that whoever flagged this would know nothing that it's a joke image and take it at face value.
I'm starting to wonder if some of the flaggers here just aren't very versed in the internet...
I'm starting to wonder if some of the flaggers here just aren't very versed in the internet...
Counter-point:
The flaggers probably ARE very versed in the internet. They're griefers -- trolls whose sole purpose in life is to give other users a hard time simply because they can. In the case of Danbooru, it's assholes going around looking for popular images which aren't perfect in every way and flagging them for deletion purely out of spite.
"If you believe a post violates the site rules or is low quality, you may flag it for review." -> There will be people disagreeing with the flag. So flags are subjective of course that should get expressed in an objective way.
Then flagging guidelines: "Do not complain about flag reasons in the comments. Be patient and remain civil. The post will be approved if the reason is unjustified." -> Discussing the flags appears ok, but one should not attack the flagger like some of you are doing here. And the last sentence is pretty straight forward. And discussing doesn't mean "there are many bad ones in the last month" but "This post looks ok, because reason XYZ or 123". Look at NWSiaCB's comment for this. But then again, "meritless"...meh.
So, don't attack the flagging person and stay a bit more patient. I shouldn't even tell you that since the wiki is linked in the flag reason.
So, don't attack the flagging person and stay a bit more patient. I shouldn't even tell you that since the wiki is linked in the flag reason.
Patient for what? A new user to be given approval rights so that more of these flags can be overturned? Because otherwise, patience just gets more posts deleted. Thanks to the power structure in Danbooru, angry complaints are the only tool at the average user's disposal against seemingly arbitrary and random actions by moderators. Even if you say that "good images will be re-approved", that presumes trust in the moderators by the general userbase, and even if you add in "discussion shouldn't be in the image's comments," then the MASSIVE, ANGRY thread in the forums about moderators perpetrating "flag vandalism" certainly seems to be a hint at the general mood and trust.
I'm not arguing the flagger is evil, I'm arguing the reasoning for this flag is poor, and if the logic used in this post is dangerous if used against other posts in the future, as it would result in a Danbooru much fewer people would want to visit, myself included. If we're deleting jokes and webcomics for 'backgrounds just as an afterthought', now, there won't be anything but wallpaper material and whatever porn meets the fetishes of a core group of mods, left. (And seeing as that appears to be 'disproportionately squat with giant tits', I'm not interested...) A ton of perfectly good comics have simple blank white backgrounds.
That is, of course, unless the post is re-approved, or someone actually comes up with a reason for a flag that wouldn't be just as applicable to something like a quarter of Danbooru's posts. However, it doesn't look like many of these flagged images are ever re-approved, especially when the flag reason implicates it's one of the moderators doing the flag, leading most to believe that there is no reason to trust the moderators will do anything about these deletions but perpetrate more of them. In that case, this comes off as utterly arbitrary and random, (and to be clear, 'arbitrary and random' is what I think this is,) or the start of a far worse purge of the non-porn content on Danbooru.
Patient for what? A new user to be given approval rights so that more of these flags can be overturned? Because otherwise, patience just gets more posts deleted. Thanks to the power structure in Danbooru, angry complaints are the only tool at the average user's disposal against seemingly arbitrary and random actions by moderators. Even if you say that "good images will be re-approved", that presumes trust in the moderators by the general userbase, and even if you add in "discussion shouldn't be in the image's comments," then the MASSIVE, ANGRY thread in the forums about moderators perpetrating "flag vandalism" certainly seems to be a hint at the general mood and trust.
I'm not arguing the flagger is evil, I'm arguing the reasoning for this flag is poor, and if the logic used in this post is dangerous if used against other posts in the future, as it would result in a Danbooru much fewer people would want to visit, myself included. If we're deleting jokes and webcomics for 'backgrounds just as an afterthought', now, there won't be anything but wallpaper material and whatever porn meets the fetishes of a core group of mods, left. (And seeing as that appears to be 'disproportionately squat with giant tits', I'm not interested...) A ton of perfectly good comics have simple blank white backgrounds.
That is, of course, unless the post is re-approved, or someone actually comes up with a reason for a flag that wouldn't be just as applicable to something like a quarter of Danbooru's posts. However, it doesn't look like many of these flagged images are ever re-approved, especially when the flag reason implicates it's one of the moderators doing the flag, leading most to believe that there is no reason to trust the moderators will do anything about these deletions but perpetrate more of them. In that case, this comes off as utterly arbitrary and random, (and to be clear, 'arbitrary and random' is what I think this is,) or the start of a far worse purge of the non-porn content on Danbooru.
See: You stayed patient and it was re-approved. Discussion in the comment section is always a good thing. Attacking the flag or the flagger is not ok. It is clearly against the guidelines of commenting. That's this "stay patient" is talking about: One doesn't need to wait, but one should discuss in a correct manner. That's why the comment guidelines are linked to it. Should be always like this: Discussing and not talking in bar-room clichés. It is helping sometimes like in this case.
But about another point: If you are complaining about that other posts aren't re-approved, then I wonder who is at fault here: The flagger or the Contributor (and if available the Approver). You make it sound that the flagger is at fault. If that really is true, then Admins would call out. What you are doing is talking about something you can't possibly know. You don't know who is flagging since there doesn't appear a name, but instead you think that it is a moderator. And even it is a moderator, the staff is acting pretty independent. So this argument doesn't hold water in my eyes.
See: You stayed patient and it was re-approved. Discussion in the comment section is always a good thing. Attacking the flag or the flagger is not ok. It is clearly against the guidelines of commenting. That's this "stay patient" is talking about: One doesn't need to wait, but one should discuss in a correct manner. That's why the comment guidelines are linked to it. Should be always like this: Discussing and not talking in bar-room clichés. It is helping sometimes like in this case.
But about another point: If you are complaining about that other posts aren't re-approved, then I wonder who is at fault here: The flagger or the Contributor (and if available the Approver). You make it sound that the flagger is at fault. If that really is true, then Admins would call out. What you are doing is talking about something you can't possibly know. You don't know who is flagging since there doesn't appear a name, but instead you think that it is a moderator. And even it is a moderator, the staff is acting pretty independent. So this argument doesn't hold water in my eyes.
Because it's long, I'm putting this in an expand box...
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I cannot see this as patience, but being a squeaky wheel that brought about re-approval... it was re-approved immediately after I made a large comment, and I only noticed this post because someone else made a comment on it. That, in and of itself, is a problem, because it just encourages being the wheel that squeaks loudest.
The problem I have (and which I bring up in the forums occasionally before essentially being told to shut up) isn't with the flagger, but with the slapdash method of moderation. There are de facto no rules for uploads on Danbooru, and there is barely anything you can call a guideline, there is just the whim of the moderator who happens to see that post at that time. There is punishment for having a deleted post, which breeds caution in uploaders, which is deliberate and fine, since that means self-awareness keeps more clearly poor art out without having to involve the moderators.
However, for that to truly be effective, there needs to actually be at least a consistent idea of what is and isn't allowed.
A lack of clear and consistent rules or guidelines just breeds confusion, frustration, and ultimately fear and anger that, even if you don't like something being flagged, you don't know if one of your favorites is next.
Whoever the actual flagger happens to be isn't as important as the obvious trend, and whether the moderators as a whole are going along with it. Whether you were the flagger of various images or not, you and a few others have been making statements that cannot be seen as anything but championing the recent change in flagging. At the very least, after all, you were talking about this image, but not re-approving it. I have seen direct statements from yourself and others in flagged image comments to the effect that you wish to essentially purge a large number of images. I put the flag on that previously linked image as a test of what does and doesn't fly in the flags, and you, yourself, are the one that immediately re-approved it. Meanwhile, other flags seem far less likely to be re-approved for reasons I suspect have to do with, if not delierately discussed strategy of what you want deleted, at least with an understanding of what the other moderators want to see done with flags.
(And this is ignoring that Doom image, which was ultimately deleted in spite of there being a contingent of moderators who wanted it there, Albert included, by sheer attrition of flaggers... which is another matter, entirely.)
I can agree with a good deal of what you are doing, and have said so at those times, but I don't agree with all of it. The problem is, where this purge goes is not publicly discussed anyplace most users can see the reasoning, and when it seems like we're going to see a purge of everything with unmoving pattern, for example, this undemocratic system of letting moderators pick based largely upon their own whims means that most users wind up unsure where this is going next.
Now yes, civility in discussion is worth lauding at any time, but that doesn't mean certain courses of action aren't better at actually attaining civility than others. And I certainly understand that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but to segue into a different metaphor, famous quote from JFK goes, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." If there is no open discussion of clear, consistent guidelines of what is or isn't permissible, with the general community getting at least some sense they have buy-in or understanding of the reasoning, it just tells users the ground is shifting beneath their feet for reasons they don't understand. That encourages incivility whether you want to read the rules to them or not. If someone comes up with a "WWW rule" in the forums and applies it fairly consistently, at least there is an understanding of what that rule is, and what it applies to. If this is the Wild West, it just encourages... well, squeaky wheels squeaking uncivilly.
Because it's long, I'm putting this in an expand box...
Show
I cannot see this as patience, but being a squeaky wheel that brought about re-approval... it was re-approved immediately after I made a large comment, and I only noticed this post because someone else made a comment on it. That, in and of itself, is a problem, because it just encourages being the wheel that squeaks loudest.
The problem I have (and which I bring up in the forums occasionally before essentially being told to shut up) isn't with the flagger, but with the slapdash method of moderation. There are de facto no rules for uploads on Danbooru, and there is barely anything you can call a guideline, there is just the whim of the moderator who happens to see that post at that time. There is punishment for having a deleted post, which breeds caution in uploaders, which is deliberate and fine, since that means self-awareness keeps more clearly poor art out without having to involve the moderators.
However, for that to truly be effective, there needs to actually be at least a consistent idea of what is and isn't allowed.
A lack of clear and consistent rules or guidelines just breeds confusion, frustration, and ultimately fear and anger that, even if you don't like something being flagged, you don't know if one of your favorites is next.
Whoever the actual flagger happens to be isn't as important as the obvious trend, and whether the moderators as a whole are going along with it. Whether you were the flagger of various images or not, you and a few others have been making statements that cannot be seen as anything but championing the recent change in flagging. At the very least, after all, you were talking about this image, but not re-approving it. I have seen direct statements from yourself and others in flagged image comments to the effect that you wish to essentially purge a large number of images.
I can agree with a good deal of what you are doing, and have said so at those times, but I don't agree with all of it. The problem is, where this purge goes is not publicly discussed anyplace most users can see the reasoning, and when it seems like we're going to see a purge of everything with unmoving pattern, for example, this undemocratic system of letting moderators pick based largely upon their own whims means that most users wind up unsure where this is going next.
Now yes, civility in discussion is worth lauding at any time, but that doesn't mean certain courses of action aren't better at actually attaining civility than others. And I certainly understand that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but to segue into a different metaphor, famous quote from JFK goes, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." If there is no open discussion of clear, consistent guidelines of what is or isn't permissible, with the general community getting at least some sense they have buy-in or understanding of the reasoning, it just tells users the ground is shifting beneath their feet for reasons they don't understand. That encourages incivility whether you want to read the rules to them or not. If someone comes up with a "WWW rule" in the forums and applies it fairly consistently, at least there is an understanding of what that rule is, and what it applies to. If this is the Wild West, it just encourages... well, squeaky wheels squeaking uncivilly.
Well, first: Yes, it has something to do with those "loud wheels". We have status:flagged, too. I honestly wish, although I make some flags here and there, that more Janitors would use their tool like the mod queue. Albert took some actions and at least the amount of reviewing incresed from 3 who are using these tools to 10 (out of ca. 50 Janitors). Granted, some don't use the tool but are still reviewing. I personally don't like this, but ok, one isn't bound to use them.
And of course there aren't any hard rules for most uploads (exceptions do exist, but these are spare). It is a huge list of guidelines which is a problem, because some people are saying that we should be strict, others see it the opposite way. The moderation and administration can do very few about these. Or they just make rules and end up being "undemocratic" which can be a problem for art which is "free". So it is a difficult way to go and someone will be offended. But this amount appears as not too large at the moment.
And I don't approve this kind of posts. I'm a huge soccer fan and I instantly knew what this photo is refrencing to. But me talking about this post shouldn't mean that I need to approve it. I tried to make a neutral statement, not favoring the flag here, even though I could. That said: Janitors are still free to approve posts they like. It is still a subjective matter, akthough I try to be as neutral as possible for every post I see. That's way I have over 10.000 approvals accumulated in the last three months (:o). And yes, I could purge a large amount of images. I have unlimited flagging power, but then I'm too lazy (:P) and some posts from certain artists are still acceptable. So to make a purge for one kind of images from one artist is..difficult and I wouldn't like that.
That you don't agree with everything is perfect. That's wh we have discussions in the first place. As long as you don't end up being aggressive or offending which you aren't. But here is something that is a problem: Although art is "free", Danbooru is not a "democratic" place (whatever you mean by that). But that everything is going nuts is...unprobable. Flagging was never disallowed and someone (^o^) decided to look a bit closer. Ending up with doing mistakes, but also learning with the flags. That one feels "uncertain" because of this is ok. But one should always be aware that flagging was possible every time. It just wasn't used. So I can hardly see any kind of uncertainty here in regards of flagging. This was always the way, Danbooru intended to go, but the flagging mechanism wasn't inactive. So I can understand when people see this as unwelcome from their perspective. But that is nothing in my eyes that is overly "undemocratic".
That said: Nothing is ending up with "uncertainty" but flagging is an action that people don't like when there wasn't much before. It is completely new, but something that was always possible. It's like not having information for a law that exists and one thinks doesn't exist but when you are hit with it, it is very offending at first.