Hitler seems to be a pretty good guy, huh. Treats his kanmusu well.
The actual Hitler can be a really good guy when he gets his way. And you don't happen to be one of those people he considers 'degenerate'.
The way he treats Yuu is quite similar to how the real person treated his secretaries and pet dog. Well, at least before the war turned badly and he started to have mental breakdowns 24/7.
I'll say he's actually a very empathetic, emotional person who is capable of showing great kindness and caring, and was neither a sociopath nor a psychopath as what most people would think of him. it's just well, sad that his massive inferiority complex and disaffection over how the previous government handled WW I had led him down to a path of hate and madness.
(He's also probably a bit cuckoo in a way, but the same brand of cuckoo commonly found among artists and academics.)
I think it is important to realize that it doesn't take horrible monsters to commit great evil. The potential for evil, for committing great cruelty exists in every one of us, even among some of the kindest people, and it is important to realize that as we go upon our daily lives lest we end up doing something we regret later on. Or worse, doing something bad to other people and failing to regret it at all.
It's just a shame that most media just portray him as a spawn of Satan evil incarnate. Nope, no morals to be learnt here, he's just an evil monster. Yep. It's like they're scared that people would start to emulate Hitler if they start to empathize with him (part of the reason for some of the criticism of Downfall). No, it is when we empathize with people like Hitler, when we understand the motives for what they did, and realize that they are human like us, then only can we learn from their mistakes. Otherwise history will just repeat itself.
We can easily empathize with Kim Jong and say that he's doing good work by suppressing his people, rejecting western ways and giving the finger to human rights but that doesn't make it right.
We could argue that Stalin, Mao Zedong and Kim Jong Un are actually nice people too on the inside and to their favorite pets. Doesn't really excuse them from what they've done.
Hell, take any horrible person in history that done countless horrific deeds and we can make them look righteous. It's not that hard, but that doesn't make they good people.
If I may, I actually think the same can be said for great leaders now in reverse.
You could patronize one person as a great leader, or ridicule someone as a vicious and horrible human. But in the end, they are all human in the same.
What I'm trying to say is; humans are all potentially evil, and righteous at the same time. They could perform cruelty or immense kindness at any time.
No one is truely evil nor good.
In my opinion, you can't really comfortably call anyone good or bad. The best adjectives I am ever comfortable of using is kind or nasty.
We can easily empathize with Kim Jong and say that he's doing good work by suppressing his people, rejecting western ways and giving the finger to human rights but that doesn't make it right.
We could argue that Stalin, Mao Zedong and Kim Jong Un are actually nice people too on the inside and to their favorite pets. Doesn't really excuse them from what they've done.
Hell, take any horrible person in history that done countless horrific deeds and we can make them look righteous. It's not that hard, but that doesn't make they good people.
I didn't say that they were righteous, or what they doing were good. Or that it even excuses whatever behavior they did. Yes, all those actions are evil, and some of them are probably even sociopathic or psychopathic (I'm looking at you, the Kim family. Lack of empathy is a hallmark trait. Must be the silver spoon thing). But they are still human, nonetheless. And I'm just saying that if you slap on a convenient 'Capital E for Evil' label on them and just file it under whichever drawer you have in your mind it is very easy to not look deeper into the circumstances which led to them committing great evil. And if you happen to chance on similar circumstances in your life, you may fail to notice and walk down a similar path. When we just conveniently demonize a person we fail to examine things critically, and fail to understand the circumstances and actions which led to the evil act.
It's like taking a look at say, a school massacre and just labeling the murderer as a 'sicko' instead of analyzing what led to it. Yes, what the guy did was evil, and he should be punished for it. But if we never examine what influenced him on that action (bullying, poor family, etc.), we would be hard-pressed to avoid similar things happening in the future.
History is a lens to the past. We study history with the benefit of hindsight to learn from our forebears' mistakes, and to avoid repeating them. To do otherwise is a great disservice to history.
Edit:
CookieYome said:
If I may, I actually think the same can be said for great leaders now in reverse.
You could patronize one person as a great leader, or ridicule someone as a vicious and horrible human. But in the end, they are all human in the same.
What I'm trying to say is; humans are all potentially evil, and righteous at the same time. They could perform cruelty or immense kindness at any time.
No one is truely evil nor good.
In my opinion, you can't really comfortably call anyone good or bad. The best adjectives I am ever comfortable of using is kind or nasty.
I think I agree quite strongly here. We can label actions, and maybe even character traits as good or evil, but to label a person as absolutely good or evil presupposes certain things (that he is either a saint or rotten to the core).
And yeah, dictators are grade-A jerks (or grade-F, as the case may be), even if they started out as nice people, and it doesn't matter how nice they treat their family and friends. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely...road to hell is paved with good intentions...etc. etc.
I didn't say that they were righteous, or what they doing were good. Or that it even excuses whatever behavior they did. Yes, all those actions are evil, and some of them are probably even sociopathic or psychopathic (I'm looking at you, the Kim family. Lack of empathy is a hallmark trait. Must be the silver spoon thing). But they are still human, nonetheless. And I'm just saying that if you slap on a convenient 'Capital E for Evil' label on them and just file it under whichever drawer you have in your mind it is very easy to not look deeper into the circumstances which led to them committing great evil. And if you happen to chance on similar circumstances in your life, you may fail to notice and walk down a similar path. When we just conveniently demonize a person we fail to examine things critically, and fail to understand the circumstances and actions which led to the evil act.
It's like taking a look at say, a school massacre and just labeling the murderer as a 'sicko' instead of analyzing what led to it. Yes, what the guy did was evil, and he should be punished for it. But if we never examine what influenced him on that action (bullying, poor family, etc.), we would be hard-pressed to avoid similar things happening in the future.
History is a lens to the past. We study history with the benefit of hindsight to learn from our forebears' mistakes, and to avoid repeating them. To do otherwise is a great disservice to history.
I agree about you, especially we need to examine the source of influence to prevent similar happenings in the future. Thank you for sharing your thought with us.
I also think that if he was not influenced by certain sources that triggered him to be the great murderer, he could be just an ordinary person(or an artist if he decided to restart), who loves animals. [Believe it or not, he was the pioneer of animal protection, since he established the Animal Protection Act for the first time in the world.]
...However, while it maybe ok to review him with an angle of merciful, I wish we should never, EVER, forget what he and his organization had done before. [Similar as what John F. Kennedy said, "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."] Because if we don't careful ourselves [viewing him with too much of merciful perspective / forgetting what he had done before / or simply be ignorant about him], our naive heart could be exploited by his fanatic followers, who seriously think his every work [Holocaust / attempting genocide / leading his organization to commit indescribable crimes] was absolutely right.
And, please, try to avoid mentioning about him(especially talking about him like he was an innocent person) to the people whose nation was GREATLY suffered by his organization before [Austria, Czech Republic, Poland, Israel & others][Even Germany itself].
P.S. Meanwhile, I worry about what is current Japanese young people's perspective about him. Because I witnessed several picture(& their comments) depicted him as some sort of great person, who fought along side with Imperial Japan for struggling to fight against greedy of 鬼畜米英(Devil US and UK). ..And how Alicesoft's Daiteikoku beautifies him as an innocent girl with innocent doing.
P.S.2 I will try to view him(in this picture's) as a person who was not influenced by the certain sources. As well as he truly loves his Kanmusus as how he loves animals.
...However, while it maybe ok to review him with an angle of merciful, I wish we should never, EVER, forget what he and his organization had done before. [Similar as what John F. Kennedy said, "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."] Because if we don't careful ourselves [viewing him with too much of merciful perspective / forgetting what he had done before / or simply be ignorant about him], our naive heart could be exploited by his fanatic followers, who seriously think his every work [Holocaust / attempting genocide / leading his organization to commit indescribable crimes] was absolutely right.
Yeah, I agree here, the Nazis (as an organization) were evil (even if individual members like Schindler may not be), National Socialism is an evil ideology, and we must never forget the evils that they have wrought.
XM8Carbine said:
And, please, try not mention about him(especially talking about him like he was an innocent person) to the people whose nation was GREATLY suffered by his organization before [Austria, Czech Republic, Poland, Israel & others][Even Germany itself].
I apologize as my previous comments seem to have triggered uncomfortable thoughts among other people. It was never my intention to treat him as innocent, 'though I can see how it can be seen that way in my original post.
This may be because of well, a habit of mine to disassociate the evils a person has wrought from his other deeds... well, this is sort of hard to explain. Suffice to say I grew up in a former Japanese colony (however brief that time may be) where well, the evils that the IJA has wrought has never really faded. My grandmother had to flee to the jungle to save herself from marauding rape-happy IJA troops. Her friends were not so lucky.
Now as you know, Japan has a policy of well... let's just call it historical revisionism. There's a lot of people denying what have been done (and by extension, calling my grandmother a liar), and a lot of influential people who were certainly involved in authorizing the massacres got off scot-free, like a certain ex-Emperor.
Needless to say there's still a lot of lingering resentment for the Japanese. Especially since the massacres aren't really acknowledged by most people in the West anyway (Chinese life is so cheap since there are so damn many of us). My method of coping with this hate, of not giving myself into it, is through understanding the motives of what drove the IJA to commit those atrocities. And my understanding is that well, while the IJA were certainly evil, the average, run-of-the-mill soldier was basically a drunken frat boy who was basically given too much leeway on how they treat the local population. "It's okay to mistreat the Chinese. They are the other. They are demons that aren't even human." And this is how decent Japanese folk, people who would later age into respectable gentlemen and become pillars of their community, were able to perform such morally-repugnant deeds.
And I also came to understand why their kids and grandchildren would disbelieve anything we say even when black-and-white proof is waved right in front. Because their grandparents were such wonderful people. How could they do such things? Are you calling my grandpa a liar?
And what really scares me about this is that some members of the community hold similar thoughts for the Japanese themselves (see hinomoto_oniko). or for some other group (we are a minority here) who have wronged them. Hate begat hate, so the speak. And understanding, and tolerance is the only way to break that cycle of hate.
I may be on a high horse here, since I never lived through those times. Forgiveness and understanding is harder for those who have actually suffered.
...and that's well, in a way, my reason for being 'cavalier' when mentioning Hitler's misdeeds. My nation had suffered greatly even through the three short years of Japanese rule, but I've grown to become comfortable about talking around it (otherwise, really I wouldn't even feel comfortable around Kancolle), and I'd assumed the same for other people. I apologize if it has caused any offense. Sorry for the long side-rant, but I wanted to make it clear where my views came from.
XM8Carbine said:
P.S. Meanwhile, I worry about what is Japanese young people's perspective about him. Because I witnessed several picture(& their comments) depicted him as some sort of great person, who fought along side with Imperial Japan for struggling to fight for survival from greedy of 鬼畜米英(Devil US and UK). ..And how Alicesoft's Daiteikoku beautifies him as an innocent girl with innocent doing.
The problem, in a sense, is that a lot of influential Japanese people like the various Zaibatsu leaders and the aforementioned ex-Emperor were not really taken to task for what they did. Just a few scapegoats were punished, unlike for the Nazis. And the survivors got to regal their youth with tales of bravery and nationalism and honor and all that. And well, since the Nazis were on their side, they must be good guys on some level too, right?
So yeah, it wasn't really hammered in, unlike what was done to Germany (where even a swastika is forbidden nowadays except in extremely limited 'educational' circumstances).
So yeah, I guess you're right, "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
And well, I still enjoy Kancolle. Helps that the IJN were comparatively nicer chaps compared to the IJA. 'though I admit that I feel uncomfortable with the Akitsu Maru comfort woman jokes -- strikes a little too home to me.
XM8Carbine said:
P.S.2 I will try to view him(in this picture's) as a person who was not influenced by the certain sources. As well as he truly loves his Kanmusus as how he loves animals.
In the other post we have Hitler giving one of the reasons for not being against Yuu/Ro's marriage to the Japanese TTK as "my niece in heaven will be furious against me if I do" (paraphrased). Given that it is the same niece whom he'd driven to suicide due to his over-controlling behavior, I like to think this Hitler has the same experiences as our world's, up to his point of suicide, perhaps. Maybe the world of Kancolle is basically purgatory for war criminals and the spirits of ships who were not put to rest. And the idea of Hitler -- despite how bad he was, and the atrocities he committed-- becoming a changed man for the better gives me a fuzzy sort of feeling inside.
(even if individual members like Schindler may not be).
...Maybe I should say 'except few people', since I realized there were indeed the people with moral value like Schindler. Thank you for mentioning about him.
P.S. It's somehow making me to think about Yin-yang form, which I interpreted it as 'Nothing is purely good or evil.' Even good organizations have few(or fewer) evil people, while evil organizations have few(or fewer) good people. After all, organizations are not made up with just single person.
P.S.2
NNescio said:
My method of coping with this hate, of not giving myself into it, is through understanding the motives of what drove the (certain military organization) to commit those atrocities...
...Hate begins hate, so the speak. And understanding, and tolerance is the only way to break that cycle of hate.
I admire such attitudes of yours! I will try to have such admirable attitudes as well.
And if you don't mind, I also would like to recommend you that don't let the people to exploit your admirable attitudes to gain their own benefit.
I believe the side who caused crimes also need to acknowledge its faults (otherwise, they're definately going to repeat same mistake again). It's very bitter, but, like what Martin R. Lemieux said;
“Accept your dark side, understanding it will help you to move with the light. Knowing both sides of our souls, helps us all to move forward in life and to understand that, perfection doesn't exist.”
With their acknowledgment and your attitudes, I think this cycle of hate could be broken.
I won't defend Hitler or his actions, they were bad and a nation was punished for it. I'll just say this: Those who win wars make absolutely everything necessary to justify their actions and deviate future generation's attention to a scapegoat in order to excuse themselves for equally horrible acts against those who combat. That includes exaggerating and making themselves look as the "good guys" with lies written on history books that are equally believed with real facts.
If you ever though Hitler was or wasn't a bad guy at all, it's equally valid to think the Allies were or weren't the good guys too. In the end everything is past history and any government who uses its citizens as war toys by using mediatic propaganda so they feel comfortable killing other nations' people are all evil in my opinion.
There are plenty of things I would like to say regarding all this thread, but it is difficult to be impartial being one from "this" or "that" side. Everything that can be said will be politically incorrect for "us" or for "them".
The only thing I can say is that I cannot blame my grandfather for fighting in mainland Asia, nor I can blame the other guys across the Pacific for incinerating whatever remained from my family.
In the end, hate is perpetuated because people are either greedy or stupid. No amount of hate or future killings will manage to bring the dead back from their graves.
Ok fucking calling it here. GODWIN IS SPINNING YOU GAGGLE OF FUCKWITS.
This is supposed to be a picture of Yuu being utterly adorable in a European style maid outfit, and the lot of you shit lickers are debating the moral character of obvious EVIL warlords.
All this text questioning about moral and I am just sitting here looking at how adorable Yuu look in that maid outfit in panel 4. Boy, do I love enjoying simple things.
Dictators often try to do the best for the sake of their nations, even if it requires doing something evil, as long as it's necessary. Well, like they say in Code Geass, sometimes it takes another evil to suppress a much greater evil, and someone has to do it and shoulder the hatred.
Hitler has to do it since Germany becomes a laughing-stock after WWI.
And for the picture... yeah I agree, Yuu-chan is cute. We need more U-boats!
All this text questioning about moral and I am just sitting here looking at how adorable Yuu look in that maid outfit in panel 4. Boy, do I love enjoying simple things.
I think we all do, but as always Keo has a thing for making mountains out of molehills with fictional characters and we all fall for it. :P
I came to this comment section for "DAWWWW she's in a maid dress" and left an enlightened being. but srsly you guys should be public speakers or write books or something.
I wonder if there will come a time when people try to humanize Osama Bin Laden and Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi because they're pretty much the modern day Hitlers.
...Oh, and yeah U-511 is cute. Must not forget the important part of this message.
Just like history has showed us, when the capitalist tyranny reign of USA ends (power on nations don't last forever and switch through time) and they don't distort facts so they can freely justify their "freedom" anymore. That's when people will realize how "humane" those "terrorists" are. In the same way time will show how "inhumane" USA is at sacrificing troops to kill people only for economical interests. It could happen in 50 years or in two centiuries, no one knows for sure.
I came to this comment section for "DAWWWW she's in a maid dress" and left an enlightened being. but srsly you guys should be public speakers or write books or something.
Well.... These things are pretty normal if you look into stuff. Especially if you are into WW2 like many enthusiasts out there, me included.
Mein Führrrrer!
Gute Arrrrrbeit!!
"Mein Führer, good job!" Again, English in the original (except for Führer), with dragged out vowels.To think that she would want a maid's dress, huh.Schöööööööön!!"Niiiice!" Admiral Donuts is speaking in English in the original.flutterflutterSeems like the Führer gave her a set of maid clothes as a present.schwebCalm yourself, Dönitz.It really suits h—