I know this is just kicking off another one of those notoriously over-involved discussions this series vomits everywhere it goes, but...
This is basically why I always liked Remi, and hated Reimu.
Remi's an egotistical brat, but she's basically just there to say "I'm so cool", and to have fun. She's got a zepplin-sized ego that people love seeing deflated, but she's always willing to let it go when something more important comes along. She's basically just a kid who talks big but thinks thats how she's supposed to get the respect of people she likes, and really is good at heart when the chips are down. (Plus, she has Patchu supporting her...)
Reimu, meanwhile, is just a giant flaming asshole whose ego isn't "I'm so cool," it's "I hate everyone." It's Captain Buzzkill's attitude about everything that made me never understand why she got to be so popular in general compared to so many other Touhou characters.
I'm sad to see Sakuya go, since she had the most relatable reasons for me, and honestly, even though I generally like Okuu, I have never liked the notion that the heroes of any story should be the biggest drooling idiots in the bunch. (Which is why I dislike an overwhelming majority of shonen in general...)
...This is basically why I always liked Remi, and hated Reimu...
To Be fair, Reimu never intended to fight in the first place, even when she knew about the prize money and Remilia's constant pestering, she only joined because she's sick of being poor
..."I hate everyone."... ...why she got to be so popular in general compared to so many other Touhou characters...
That's a common mistate, Reimu's attitude is more of a "I don't care" then "I hate everybody" Basically she doesn't care who, or why you started an incident, or mind that your mooching off of her or not. She's not particularly nice or mean or anything like that, she just doing stuff her way.
Neo_X said: That's a common mistate, Reimu's attitude is more of a "I don't care" then "I hate everybody" Basically she doesn't care who, or why you started an incident, or mind that your mooching off of her or not. She's not particularly nice or mean or anything like that, she just doing stuff her way.
Isn't that a distinction without difference?
Those are the characters I just don't like - the ones who don't bother to care about anything or try for anything, or think or change in any way.
Reimu just expects to win at everything because she was born to be a superstar. The reason she's unpopular is because she doesn't give anyone a reason TO like her, so it's all her own fault, ultimately.
Granted, the fact that she's actually got it kind of rough still makes her better off than Sanae, who's basically the same, except she's actually popular. "I'm such a super-special snowflake that everything in life will go my way if I just jiggle my tits to get everyone to like me - TEEHEE! I don't have to think or try or anything, I can just rely upon 'Miracles' to just be handed to me."
Meanwhile, they act as a sort of glass ceiling - the thing that keeps other characters who actually try to exceed their limitations (which is basically the definition of Marisa's character - every power she has, she stole) from actually being recognized. Skill, talent, determination, intelligence, character growth, none of that means shit if you weren't born to be a superstar.
It's the characters that are clever, that defy their assigned places, and fight beyond where they should have been limited to that are respectable. I actually respected Reisen (who's normally just a mopey butt-monkey) in this series for that.
Tenshi, Okuu, and Remi have been stupid, but trying. (Plus Suika was a bit stupid for reasons Kilga said a while ago.) Reimu's just lazy. Sanae's worst of all for being stupid AND lazy.
Suwako and Kaguya have been neither lazy nor stupid, so they're the most respectable fighters left.
These things you call "heels", I'll call "heroes".
I guess I'll just root for Kaguya for now, though... The more of an evil, manipulative bitch she becomes, the more I like her.
monhan said: Kinda off-topic but where was it decided that Moriya won against Lotus Tiger? Did I miss a strip?
You probably did miss one and that match ended in a draw but it might as well have ended as Lotus Tiger's win considering that Hijiri slammed Sanae outside the ring.
CybeastGregarX said: That match ended in a draw but it might as well have ended as Lotus Tiger's win considering that Hijiri slammed Sanae outside the ring.
So it's not decided yet. Lotus Tiger is one of my favorite, however I would like Team Moriya to go on since Lotus Tiger(Byakuren, at least) is already satisfied with the match with HS and I don't think they need to continue. Besides, having a rematch with HS is better off done outside the tournament if we ever got one and I want to see Heavenly Sky vs Team Moriya.
But first, they have to deal with this. Seems like we'll have quite an uproar in the next strip.
That was an exhibition match. LT weren't going to "advance" no matter what happened. The whole match was meant to keep a more level playing field by wearing down Team Moriya in advance of the match against LS or HS. However, Sanae set forth the condition that if they lost the exhibition match, they'd be eliminated.
NWSiaCB said: Isn't that a distinction without difference?
There is a difference, Hating something means that you actually care about the matter.
Reimu just expects to win at everything because she was born to be a superstar. The reason she's unpopular is because she doesn't give anyone a reason TO like her, so it's all her own fault, ultimately.
Personally, I think people don't like her because we expect the main protagonist like a main protagonist is the reason people don't like her, being upright and caring and all that jazz. And basically she's barely of that, she's basically just neutral all the way. But to get to the point, She doesn't expects to win, she just doesn't really think about it.
...better off than Sanae, who's basically the same, except she's actually popular. "I'm such a super-special snowflake that everything in life will go my way if I just jiggle my tits to get everyone to like me - TEEHEE! I don't have to think or try or anything, I can just rely upon 'Miracles' to just be handed to me."
Sanae is not like that... well she used to be (jiggle my tits, really...) she actually started to take her matches seriously after that thrashing from Yuuka, and try to be fair to her opponents as possible, she prepared an exhibition match so she and suwako can be as fairly match to her opponents as possible, making her match against flan and meiling a two out of three mach after her no-sell trickery. And unlike Reimu, actually tries to understand her opponents feelings. She fits the protagonist's roll rather well.
It's the characters that are clever, that defy their assigned places, and fight beyond where they should have been limited to that are respectable. I actually respected Reisen (who's normally just a mopey butt-monkey) in this series for that.
Yeah, can't argue with you there, Reisen and Youmu's matches were practically bullshit...
Neo_X said: There is a difference, Hating something means that you actually care about the matter.
Personally, I think people don't like her because we expect the main protagonist like a main protagonist is the reason people don't like her, being upright and caring and all that jazz. And basically she's barely of that, she's basically just neutral all the way. But to get to the point, She doesn't expects to win, she just doesn't really think about it.
Well, I recognize it's mostly just personal opinion from my own personal biases, here, but it's just one of those things that gets on my nerves, whether it's a main character or not...
It's one thing to be calm and collected, but another thing to be such a "hipster" that they think it's cool to display disinterest and disgust at the passions of everyone around them who actually are trying their hardest to accomplish something of worth.
There was one doujin (can't find it at the moment) with all of team 9 challenging Yuuka, basically because, after Cirno beat Marisa in Fairy Wars, Marisa dismissed it as "I coldn't really go seriously against a fairy." (Although Marisa herself may have just been trying to save face to hide how weak she actually is if she only slips up with her firepower even once.) So they fought a battle just to plain force Yuuka to use all her power to defeat them, and show even the big fish in the Touhou pond have to struggle, too.
It's just a special kind of irksome to shit on the efforts of everyone else when you aren't trying, yourself, (especially if it's because you're afraid others will mock you, or think it's "cooler" to not try, or trying is just plain "beneath you").
Comparatively, I'm much more willing to listen to Remi's smack talk, which is more like, "My best is better than your best!"
I thought that Marisa's parting line was along the lines of not taking fairies too lightly and remarking that even if she went all out she'd still have something of a hard time. This is in spite of the scenario seemingly being in Marisa's favor (her clothes were less damaged)
I never got the overly "i'm special" vibe from Sanae, but rather a naive playfulness, with the whole poison mist thing being something she naively used. She is behind Reimu in overall combat ability though she's made progress from the days where she needed Dei's saving hand to win.
As far as Reisen and Youmu? A great deal of made of their training but it was seemingly forgotten when their match came up, and thus began the dirty trick barrage.
Though in the end due to various factors (A good deal of which are Yukari and Co. related), the balance in the tournament was terribly screwed up. This makes me suspect that Yukari mainly wants one person in particular to win: Reimu. It'd explain how Red 75% got some very easy matches (something that couldn't be said of Moriya or HS)
I partially suspect that Tenshi and Okuu will win and show a lesson on the Kikkuman spirit that'd be a take that at both Yukari and Kaguya's manipulations.
Dalveska said: "Pool: Touhou - Inquiry about Kazami Yuuka (potato pot)" in case you were still looking for it.
That's exactly it, thanks.
StriderTuna said: I thought that Marisa's parting line was along the lines of not taking fairies too lightly and remarking that even if she went all out she'd still have something of a hard time. This is in spite of the scenario seemingly being in Marisa's favor (her clothes were less damaged)
That, basically, is what I'm referring to. (It's possible the wording was changed a little, I can't be quite sure of whether it was differences in translation, or that the doujin author altered it a little to make a bigger dramatic point.)
As far as Reisen and Youmu? A great deal of made of their training but it was seemingly forgotten when their match came up, and thus began the dirty trick barrage.
The problem is, basically, what you said next..
Though in the end due to various factors (A good deal of which are Yukari and Co. related), the balance in the tournament was terribly screwed up.
The reason Reisen and Youmu got such a raw deal is that the rules of the tournament specifically screwed them over, but let the characters who were "always supposed to win" keep all their powers.
It's like declaring Marisa and Reimu the best drinkers in Gensokyo after having the drinking contest take place in a barrier where all the oni and goddesses and tengu had their constitutions massively disrupted, leaving only the humans able to drink.
The divine/miko characters get to keep their powers, Okuu gets to keep her nuke chop, Tenshi's still tough, but most of the other characters are reduced to being little girls, and get called weak for it.
Characters that keep their powers are "just that strong".
Against that, you have to use some sort of strategy or tactic that can make up for the difference in strength.
It's "dirty tricks" if clever characters come up with something unexpected 10 minutes ahead of time.
It's "Kinikkuman spirit" if you pull something out of your ass on the spot.
Basically, the problem I have (as a fan of clever characters, generally) is that being smart or clever or planning is not only not rewarded, but outright derided as "dirty", while being stupid and blithely charging ahead, only to have to pull some trick out of your ass at the last second counts as "heroic".
So, again, I'm saying what this manga is portraying as a "heel" is actually a "hero". If playing it smart lets you beat someone ostensibly stronger than you, especially if it's because they thought they could just win with nothing but brute force, it means you deserved your victory. It's a warped ideal to put oblivious "innocence" that wins simply because of brute force above shrewdness, combat pragmatism, preparation, and foresight.
After all, fanon myths about Reimu aside, when you boil Touhou as a shooter down, it's about how Reimu and Marisa can defeat people who are objectively far more powerful than themselves - capable of defeating them with a single slip-up on the player's part - through (the player's) awareness, pattern-recognition, preparation, planning, and foresight?
Reimu's canon superpower is that she can "intuitively" see all the bullets (as though she's seen them all before... in some "earlier playthrough" or something), while Marisa claims that she wins because she's "just that good", when her power largely derives from "intensive training that she doesn't let other people see". (As in, "I don't record the playthroughs where I hit restart because I slammed head-first into a fairy charging the POC in Stage 2.")
StriderTuna said: I thought that Marisa's parting line was along the lines of not taking fairies too lightly and remarking that even if she went all out she'd still have something of a hard time. This is in spite of the scenario seemingly being in Marisa's favor (her clothes were less damaged)
I never got the overly "i'm special" vibe from Sanae, but rather a naive playfulness, with the whole poison mist thing being something she naively used. She is behind Reimu in overall combat ability though she's made progress from the days where she needed Dei's saving hand to win.
As far as Reisen and Youmu? A great deal of made of their training but it was seemingly forgotten when their match came up, and thus began the dirty trick barrage.
Though in the end due to various factors (A good deal of which are Yukari and Co. related), the balance in the tournament was terribly screwed up. This makes me suspect that Yukari mainly wants one person in particular to win: Reimu. It'd explain how Red 75% got some very easy matches (something that couldn't be said of Moriya or HS)
I partially suspect that Tenshi and Okuu will win and show a lesson on the Kikkuman spirit that'd be a take that at both Yukari and Kaguya's manipulations.
Hhm... I never really actually thought about the matches being purposely set up like that but... it makes sense.
NWSiaCB said: Wall of text
From what I understand the powers that were nerfed in the tournament were any sort of special powers (Like Reisen's insanity eyes) outside powers (Like danmaku) or sorcery. If the power can be internalized then it stays. This is really to keep things in line with Kinnikuman and actual wrestling then anything. Characters that don't base their fighting style around the brass tacks and power moves seem to always be the ones that get taken out early. This effect actually seems to be present in a lot of video-games too though sometimes it's actual in terms of the player's tactics. The whole 'Useless useful move' thing where moves that should be really useful against the really touch bosses aren't because they have special immunity. But back to fighting stories, another example is the Ginyu force from Dragon Ball Z. Who was the weakest character? Guldo. What could Guldo do? Stop freaking time!
But I'm getting off track from what I wanted to talk about. Dirty tricks. The thing with your comment there is that most people saw what Ghost Rabbit Union was doing as dirty tricks but then when Kirisame Familiar came up to bat it was seen more as an attempt to even the playing field. It was still argued that they were cheaters but what are your thoughts on why those two matches have differing views from the readers and even the in-story audience?
SpecterVonBaren said: But I'm getting off track from what I wanted to talk about. Dirty tricks. The thing with your comment there is that most people saw what Ghost Rabbit Union was doing as dirty tricks but then when Kirisame Familiar came up to bat it was seen more as an attempt to even the playing field. It was still argued that they were cheaters but what are your thoughts on why those two matches have differing views from the readers and even the in-story audience?
Kirisame Familiar's nonstop barrage of cheating was hilarious, IMO. That's the best thing in their favor.
There's also the fact that Yukari only added the reward only after hearing about Reimu's refusal (that's the first and most suspicious sign)
And the selection methods left plenty of room for Yukari's muckery.
as far as tweaked power balances?
Ran/Chen: Both are magic based and trained lightly. odds are they'd have a hard time against Youmu/Reisen or Nitori. Yet they wound up against Yuugi (an Oni) and Orin (A hell-cat of decent power) and it showed Ran and Orin facing off evenly. The rest is as you'd expect in this case.
Youmu/Reisen: I can't blame them for their stunts considering they almost won against Red 75%, not sure what happened to their training, though it semi-implies that Reimu with her inner buff is just that strong that not even their training would make it fair. And Remi's a vampire, which are naturally strong and her specialty is Melee. Out of the teams present.
Nitori/Marisa: Nitori would be so-so and judging from her interest in sumo wrestling, she might have some decent power and skill... just not enough to deal with the OP folk. Marisa on the other hand is just a human girl without her magic (and lacking the control to do a similar innerbuff thing) Their barrage was pretty good save for one thing: They failed to really isolate the other person unlike Youmu/Reisen. As a result, the barrage only contained them with little lasting damage. The Curb stomp was rather predictable in hindsight.
Now what happened to Komachi and Shikieiki is just... Bullshit as they shown themselves to be pretty strong only to have Mokou and Kaguya ass pull a power up. (It wasn't until after the match did some sort of training was shown) I say this as neither Kaguya and Mokou are physical powerhouses by any stretch, making their feats in that match very hard to believe.
It's pretty clear Yuuka lost due to a morality and/or lucky opening.
Meiling got treated badly (as always) as you'd think she'd do pretty well, even against Suwako, instead the fancy martial arts goes to EIRIN of all people and she ends up Suwako's punching bag. Flandre in contrast is "Unskilled but strong", basically lacking skill and mental discipline. Having it be decided by a vote left a bitter taste in some readers' mouth.
Considering the remaining teams, Heaven Sky is the only time who have gone without some sort of plot boost yet have some clever thinking (Okuu's stomp and flying Suika out of the ring were both pretty clever).
SpecterVonBaren said: From what I understand the powers that were nerfed in the tournament were any sort of special powers (Like Reisen's insanity eyes) outside powers (Like danmaku) or sorcery. If the power can be internalized then it stays.
You mean, like... Youmu having extremely fast footwork? (A result of her swordsmanship training - "footwork is the basics of swordsmanship".) Being able to move with extreme speed is an internalized power, but it still got completely eliminated with no real reasoning. She could have been darting in to kick Remi at Mach 12, then zipping back out before a counter could come. (Meanwhile, Flan being able to pull off Four of a Kind doesn't really sound like anything internalized to me...)
SpecterVonBaren said: The whole 'Useless useful move' thing where moves that should be really useful against the really touch bosses aren't because they have special immunity.
That really depends on the way the game (or story) is set up, however.
Sakuya has a ridiculously powerful superpower in theory, but it's actually not overbearing because she always sets up her knife traps with an escape method. (Oftentimes, it's as simple as "just move horizontally as fast as you can".)
Meanwhile, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance is all about status effects and odd special abilities because you have as good a chance of hitting with a "sleep" or "don't act" effect as a normal hit. (You can effectively remove the threat an enemy poses in one turn instead of killing them by HP damage in 3 turns of hits.) Even many numbered Final Fantasy games have enemies that are specifically designed for players to use specific status effects against them. (Especially FFX, FFX-2, and FFXIII, where they specifically wanted to make the different classes useful all the time.)
In fact, it's generally only the most simplistic RPG that only boils down to stats alone. There's usually at least some skill combo/build that works far better than brute force alone, even if it winds up being something that, because the AI doesn't adapt, a strategy you just copy-paste onto every single fight.
SpecterVonBaren said: But I'm getting off track from what I wanted to talk about. Dirty tricks. The thing with your comment there is that most people saw what Ghost Rabbit Union was doing as dirty tricks but then when Kirisame Familiar came up to bat it was seen more as an attempt to even the playing field. It was still argued that they were cheaters but what are your thoughts on why those two matches have differing views from the readers and even the in-story audience?
In a sense, what Magus said can be taken as fairly accurate...
There's some bias in what characters get treated as the, to use some terms thrown around here recently, "fun personified", and which ones... aren't. I think part of it just plain is that Dei Shiro apparently doesn't like characters that are normally fan-favorites, like Suwako (who gets treated like some psycho), or Youmu and Reisen (both of which are normally fan-favorites), so they just don't get portrayed in the best light right off the start.
Readers, in a sense, are trained through what they read to pick up on the characters that authors are asking us to cheer for, and do so to play along with the story.
Of course, with Touhou, there are always going to be those who are always going to route for the same characters, no matter how much they get painted the villain in one story or another. (I'm a shameless Patchouli fan, for starters...) It's the source of a lot of the intractable differences of opinion that people aren't going to be willing to divorce their "every other doujin" feelings about a character from what we're "supposed to" think about characters in this one.
Going back over the series specifically... (It's been 3 years already since I read that far back...)
It portrays Youmu (again, normally a beloved character) as someone who basically just attacks people randomly and without warning (tsujigiri), and the reason the crowd hated her was because she'd attacked some of the characters in the crowd, so they hated her even before she started fighting. (And Kaguya had worked it out to her advantage - setting herself up as a "hero" by protecting some of the crowd from the "evil" Youmu and Reisen.)
Plus, post #413250 shows Yuyuko basically egged Youmu on to do things just to piss off the crowd so that people would be more excited for Reimu and Remilia. (Plus, Yuyuko then goes on to laugh with Youki about what a success it was to disgrace Youmu in front of everyone, making Yuyu herself seem like the hugest asshole on the planet... Dei Shiro has no love for Hakugyokuro.)
And as for the actual audience: Again, it was set up to make Rabbit/Ghost look like total "cheaters", so the readers fell in with the pace.
Comparatively, speed-cheating in a way done to be funny is... well, funny. It's something that's going to get the readers on that thing's side.
As someone said much earlier in the series, (paraphrasing) "You're complaining about the fights being scripted? Of course it is! It's a doujin about wrestling, it doesn't get more scripted than that!"
"This is really to keep things in line with Kinnikuman and actual wrestling then anything"
This is about the only baseline you have for this. In finally reading some Kinnikuman I found what looks like Sanae's win over Yuuka. Basically a "you were defeated", than "nope, I'm gonna surprise roll you up for a quick pin" ending. Was how Kinnikuman beat the World Champ in the Olympics early on.
I see a few flaws in your logic, considering that Reimu, Remilia, Kaguya are still in it, quite popular (some more so in japan) and shown as strong (even absurdly so) Reisen and Youmu likely ended up losing because they were pawns to their masters. (No idea how involved Eirin is with Yukari's scheme)
Yuyuko's role in things might have been done at Yukari's behest (they are both management and friends)
Scripted? The only people with scripts are the invincible team (possibly yet another sign of the scheme)
ithekro said: "This is really to keep things in line with Kinnikuman and actual wrestling then anything"
This is about the only baseline you have for this. In finally reading some Kinnikuman I found what looks like Sanae's win over Yuuka. Basically a "you were defeated", than "nope, I'm gonna surprise roll you up for a quick pin" ending. Was how Kinnikuman beat the World Champ in the Olympics early on.
I've not got to the tag team stuff yet.
I doubt Kinnikuman was really that weak compared to the other guy.
Up until that point, Kinnikuman had been pretty much the Butt Monkey of the series even though he was the star. Only after that did things become more serious.
I just realized, since we're talking about training not matching in-fight strategy, that, while all the combatants had some kind of training sequence at some point during this series, Heavenly Sky's sequence is the only one that had any lasting results going into their fight. Yuugi and Rin can be considered shallow "skills copies" of Lost Servants from the Underground - oni strength and a grappler, respectively - and all the setup for that battle was encountered in four significant panels. Okuu figures out a tactic for getting out of grapples (transforming) and how to avoid it being easily counterable (being fast). Tenshi faces off against an oni and gets an expectation of how much physical punishment she needs to endure. The match only subverts it by switching around which of the two fighters they need to use that lesson against - Utsuho uses transformation against Suika, and Tenshi suffers more to Sakuya's pins than she does the oni's abuse (and since Sakuya does not take even minor damage with her "time wall," that's to Tenshi's disadvantage).
Foresight and training did pay off for at least one of the teams.
I say that, then Mokou will fly around the ring surfing on Remi's back.
Oh, and one other thing for the response to the question before: When I went back to read the older strips, Marisa DID get booed by the audience (which apparently consists entirely of Team 9) for her "cheating". And many of the comments back then were like "This has stopped being wrestling in any meaningful way." (post #943951, post #944571) It's just that Marisa responded with, essentially, what I said: "Cheating" is the only way to level the playing field against people whose innate powers were already REALLY "cheating", anyway. (post #945411)
StriderTuna said: I see a few flaws in your logic, considering that Reimu, Remilia, Kaguya are still in it, quite popular (some more so in japan) and shown as strong (even absurdly so) Reisen and Youmu likely ended up losing because they were pawns to their masters. (No idea how involved Eirin is with Yukari's scheme)
Could you be more specific about what you mean by "flaws in my logic"? I don't see how Reimu, Remilia, and Kaguya still being in it are somehow counter to my argument...
If you mean "Why aren't Reimu and Remilia eliminated because they are "scheming"," then part of my point was that (A) they're apparently the Heel Team set up to climactically lose to HS, so the more evil and intimidating they are when they face HS, the better, and (B) they aren't as overtly depicted as "scheming" - they just have their superpowers intact. It's because they have their superpowers intact that everyone else who goes up against them has to be the schemers.
In fact, most of my argument is basically that the people who are still in and get to use their superpowers is largely arbitrary and based upon popularity with the author as much as with the audience. As SpecterVonBaren said, the people still in are by-and-large the characters that can still use most of their superpower to just brute-force their way through most challenges, and only use a handful of tricks - I.E. Okuu transforming to escape grapples - to give them a few edges. Hence, by editing what powers were arbitrarily crippled from the start, it just seems like "a natural extension of who was already the strongest" who's still in or not.
Again, there's no reason Youmu can't use her "internal" super-speed ability while characters like Sakuya's time manipulation, or Satori's mind-reading, or especially Flan's Four of a Kind, which isn't "internal" in the least. Since gods get their power from faith, why isn't Suwako nothing more than a little girl? It's only a few characters like Reimu that have overt explanations as to why their powers aren't inhibited. (With the ways to circumvent it being fairly arbitrary, like with Marisa "internalizing" her magic... somehow... but few others figuring out how to do the same, even though it would be an obvious thing to do.)
Basically, the only reason Youmu can't use super speed when everyone else can use their powers is that she was just a Dei Shiro unfavorite, so she couldn't use her powers, and wound up being a "dirty" fighter. (With her master functionally cheating against her for no really good reason other than that Yukari asked her to.)
Meanwhile, Okuu and Tenshi get to be heroes, with all of the underground characters unfairly treated by mean ol' Yukari because... well, ALL doujins play favorites, it's just that somehow, people expected this doujin to play "fair". (And again, Reimu's been cheating from the start, but it's not called cheating unless someone else does something similar to get even with Reimu.)
The problem I have with it is just that, in trying to make those two seem like heroes, they make what is normally a virtue (forethought and willingness to sacrifice for your goals) into something that is seen as a flaw so that when the cute ditzes beat the strategic masterminds because of some arbitrary critical research failure, we'll cheer.
NWSiaCB said: Oh, and one other thing for the response to the question before: When I went back to read the older strips, Marisa DID get booed by the audience (which apparently consists entirely of Team 9) for her "cheating". And many of the comments back then were like "This has stopped being wrestling in any meaningful way." (post #943951, post #944571) It's just that Marisa responded with, essentially, what I said: "Cheating" is the only way to level the playing field against people whose innate powers were already REALLY "cheating", anyway. (post #945411)
Could you be more specific about what you mean by "flaws in my logic"? I don't see how Reimu, Remilia, and Kaguya still being in it are somehow counter to my argument...
If you mean "Why aren't Reimu and Remilia eliminated because they are "scheming"," then part of my point was that (A) they're apparently the Heel Team set up to climactically lose to HS, so the more evil and intimidating they are when they face HS, the better, and (B) they aren't as overtly depicted as "scheming" - they just have their superpowers intact. It's because they have their superpowers intact that everyone else who goes up against them has to be the schemers.
In fact, most of my argument is basically that the people who are still in and get to use their superpowers is largely arbitrary and based upon popularity with the author as much as with the audience. As SpecterVonBaren said, the people still in are by-and-large the characters that can still use most of their superpower to just brute-force their way through most challenges, and only use a handful of tricks - I.E. Okuu transforming to escape grapples - to give them a few edges. Hence, by editing what powers were arbitrarily crippled from the start, it just seems like "a natural extension of who was already the strongest" who's still in or not.
Again, there's no reason Youmu can't use her "internal" super-speed ability while characters like Sakuya's time manipulation, or Satori's mind-reading, or especially Flan's Four of a Kind, which isn't "internal" in the least. Since gods get their power from faith, why isn't Suwako nothing more than a little girl? It's only a few characters like Reimu that have overt explanations as to why their powers aren't inhibited. (With the ways to circumvent it being fairly arbitrary, like with Marisa "internalizing" her magic... somehow... but few others figuring out how to do the same, even though it would be an obvious thing to do.)
Basically, the only reason Youmu can't use super speed when everyone else can use their powers is that she was just a Dei Shiro unfavorite, so she couldn't use her powers, and wound up being a "dirty" fighter. (With her master functionally cheating against her for no really good reason other than that Yukari asked her to.)
Meanwhile, Okuu and Tenshi get to be heroes, with all of the underground characters unfairly treated by mean ol' Yukari because... well, ALL doujins play favorites, it's just that somehow, people expected this doujin to play "fair". (And again, Reimu's been cheating from the start, but it's not called cheating unless someone else does something similar to get even with Reimu.)
The problem I have with it is just that, in trying to make those two seem like heroes, they make what is normally a virtue (forethought and willingness to sacrifice for your goals) into something that is seen as a flaw so that when the cute ditzes beat the strategic masterminds because of some arbitrary critical research failure, we'll cheer.
Just on the Flandre thing. I thought she was only able to use it because she got out of the barrier to do so? Or something like that.
SpecterVonBaren said: Just on the Flandre thing. I thought she was only able to use it because she got out of the barrier to do so? Or something like that.
But that's still pretty arbitrary - why does Flan get to use her power with some sort of drawbacks when Youmu can't use hers at all? Why can Remi have the ability to divide into dozens of bats "but lose power faster", when just entering the barrier just flat eliminates all of Youmu's powers until she's nothing but a little girl right from the start? Why does being a vampire or an oni matter for letting you keep most of your powers when being a spirit doesn't?
It's just plain arbitrary. Either we are to believe that Yukari is basically just flagrantly cheating in Reimu's favor by selectively crippling people for an in-universe explanation, or that Dei Shirou just arbitrarily sets the power levels in non-canon ways without saying why. (And suddenly, Shiki is a physical titan...)
Part of what it takes to maintain some suspension of disbelief in stories with magic is just plain being able to say that Magic A is Magic A, even if it might be arbitrary from the outset, but where the rules are at least reliable. Here, they aren't. Remi, Reimu, and a few others can just say "Oh, well, I feel like using a superpower that lets me destroy my opponent all of a sudden because I was always that strong, and no, I don't need to explain why I'm suddenly much stronger when the plot demands, or why nobody else can just suddenly go Super-Sayan just 'cuz." (post #951560)(post #967556)
The only in-universe explanation is that apparently, Marisa, Ran, Yuugi, Suika, Hijiri, Suwako, Youmu, Yuyuko, and many other high-level characters just always were total pathetic weaklings compared to a miko or a vampire with or without the barrier, and Remi and the others were just going easy on them the whole time. Apparently, Remi pisses more power away each time she takes a trip to the bathroom than half the cast of Touhou combined ever had if she can just say "oh, well, I'm losing power faster, but I can keep going" and keep using her superpowers without slowing down (with Remi actually being the one with time on her side since Nitori and Marisa are the ones with overt "time limits" on how long they can stand) after repeatedly getting hit in the face with power-sapping vampire weaknesses and exerting more power than normal to compensate for the barrier sapping her strength.
It's not like they weren't fighting outside the ring in Rabbit/Ghost's match, they even let Yuyuko come in for no good reason. (Other than, you know, it made Youmu and Reisen look bad, so that Reimu wouldn't be such a completely obvious cheating bitch she's been the whole series. The only way to make Reimu look good is to completely derail Youmu and Reisen into being assholes.)
Which, reading through this series again, I'm kind of astounded by what a completely unsympathetic bitch Reimu's been drawn as. Dei Shirou is one of those writers that really perverts the whole "Reimu is invincible" niche fanon bullshit into making Reimu some queen bitch that makes you wonder why everyone doesn't just poison her in her sleep.
Especially in the Marisa match, she basically said that she'd torture and humiliate anyone (even her supposed best friend) who dared question how "strong" (through cheating) she was because rule through fear of her wrath is what she thinks Gensokyo runs on, and basically won through threatening to outright murder Nitori.
(Christ, how do all my posts keep getting this long?)
NWSiaCB said: Especially in the Marisa match, she basically said that she'd torture and humiliate anyone (even her supposed best friend) who dared question how "strong" (through cheating) she was because rule through fear of her wrath is what she thinks Gensokyo runs on, and basically won through threatening to outright murder Nitori.
I say flawed logic as yours was "fan favorites get eliminated" and look at who's standing. Tenshi and Okuu are on the lower end of fan popularity compared to the others.
Interesting enough Tenshi comes off as more heroic than she does in most fanon (a spoiled brat out to make trouble), though part of that is thanks to Okuu and the other undergrounders; their kindness and friendship had an effect on her.
In short those two are closer to true heroes than Red 75%, whom Yukari is trying to make a hero out of and "Friendly Fire" with Kaguya playing her genre savvy to have a similar effect. Sanae has pretty good intentions, but she's too genre ignorant to make real use of it and Suwako may not have recovered from her full heel experience.
Even though Kanako's part of the management, Sanae and Suwako seem unaware of the manipulations and haven't gotten any particularly special treatment, considering they went up against some of the potentially toughest teams.
Some people seem to forget that Vampires prone to be being physically powerful, nearly as a much as Oni. Though the fact Reimu's inner buff/etc is so powerful makes me suggest that it might be subject to a barrier loophole perhaps, but that's getting pretty far out there.
StriderTuna said: I say flawed logic as yours was "fan favorites get eliminated" and look at who's standing. Tenshi and Okuu are on the lower end of fan popularity compared to the others.
That's not what I was arguing. I'm arguing it's about who Dei Shirou's favorites are, not fan favorites.
I'm saying Dei Shirou is ignoring canon/fanon/fan favorites in order to rewrite the characters to create heel characters in order to make Shirou's own favorites seem heroic by comparison. (Which isn't in itself terribly uncommon in doujins.)
The way Dei Shirou has been painting Reimu, she's the biggest bitch in the universe (hence, she's seemingly set up to be climactically defeated as the final heel), and several other characters have been getting pretty negative treatment as well.
It's completely against fanon, for example, to be portraying Youmu as a bully and a cheat, she normally gets portrayed the way that... well, Okuu and Tenshi have been. (Although Tenshi's still egotistical in Dei Shirou's rendition.) And you, yourself, just said that Tenshi's getting far more positive press than normal.
I'm just stating the obvious: This author's non-canon portrayal of characters and their power levels is arbitrarily biased towards making his faces look like faces and to make heels out of characters he doesn't like. Youmu's name is dragged through the mud, Suwako is some freaky psycho for no good reason, Yukari spends half the time rigging the games and the other half being some "pathetic unloved lonely old woman", and Aya basically spent half her time onscreen in the past couple hundred pages as a bloody censor.
Even though Kanako's part of the management, Sanae and Suwako seem unaware of the manipulations and haven't gotten any particularly special treatment, considering they went up against some of the potentially toughest teams.
Some people seem to forget that Vampires prone to be being physically powerful, nearly as a much as Oni. Though the fact Reimu's inner buff/etc is so powerful makes me suggest that it might be subject to a barrier loophole perhaps, but that's getting pretty far out there.
Except not - Remilia's not avoiding the barrier in any meaningful way that other characters can't, she's just exerting more power, even while her power-debilitating weaknesses are being exploited. It's just being stated that "vampires are just that powerful", and that Reimu is just plain powerful enough to just straight-up murder anyone in the cast whenever she felt like it.
Again, that's completely ignoring/failing to understand canon Reimu - she's not strong at all, she just has excellent evasion abilities thanks to basically the fourth-wall breaking advantage of "having seen it all before" (in an earlier playthrough). She isn't invincible, and she can't just destroy top-tier characters with a single punch.
As it stands, Dei Shirou has basically just declared that Remi and Reimu could have teamed up to conquer all of Gensokyo any time they wanted, and nobody else in Gensokyo could have stopped them, since obviously, even weakened in every possible way, they're more powerful than everyone else.
This after being stopped temporarily by getting hit by folding chairs and such in the first match. (They're shrugging off burning iron maidens to the face later, and can basically instantly regen to full strength with powerups whenever they damn well feel like it. Reimu winds up basically just saying "LOL, I fixed that bug where I occasionally took damage" for anything but the occasional groin shot, and makes "I recover from anything instantly" Remi look like the weak one in her team.)
It's a total narrative failure to just have characters leap up and down so far in their supposed capabilities/power levels. (Even comic book superheroes usually have the decency to do their power creep between different narratives...)
NWS, you keep talking as if the other characters are portrayed as weaklings outside of the ring but you seem to be forgetting how they act outside of it. Wasn't it Ghost Rabbit Union that helped put the beat down on the Underground?
SpecterVonBaren said: NWS, you keep talking as if the other characters are portrayed as weaklings outside of the ring but you seem to be forgetting how they act outside of it. Wasn't it Ghost Rabbit Union that helped put the beat down on the Underground?
I'm saying that Remi, Reimu, and a few others are portrayed as disproportionately strong, while Youmu and such are weak by comparison - characters that are disproportionately weak still being stronger than other characters that are in the same disproportionately weak boat isn't changing anything.
(And that scene also serves to once again show Yuyu as completely vicious and unlikeable. Dei Shirou has a lot of venom and bile for the Hakugyoukuro crowd.)
NWSiaCB said: I'm saying that Remi, Reimu, and a few others are portrayed as disproportionately strong, while Youmu and such are weak by comparison - characters that are disproportionately weak still being stronger than other characters that are in the same disproportionately weak boat isn't changing anything.
(And that scene also serves to once again show Yuyu as completely vicious and unlikeable. Dei Shirou has a lot of venom and bile for the Hakugyoukuro crowd.)
Well, to be fair, without her sword, Youmu can't do much. She's not physically strong compared to her opponents, though I agree with you about Reimu. She's really skilled and fast but she can't just kick or punch them in mach speed, it'll crush her bones. And I guess it's more about what power is held down by the barrier. Even if it doesn't depower Youmu, she doesn't have much going for her without her sword, and she only got Excalibur like Okuu's God move. He probably wanted to say that with her sword, Youmu, along with Reisen and her abilities, is still strong. And like what's been said, maybe Dei just make it that way.
That said, what power ups do you think is the best and the worst in this series and why? Best as in it works great and isn't overpowering, worst as in it's just too damn effective or not worth it. I don't count Okuu's God move since it's more like an attack and Sakuya's time wall since it's only for an instant. So I'm talking about ones that boost their abilities(Suika's giantification, Superhuman Byakuren, the Mikos' barrier power-up, Marisa's 'gyouza', and so on). Personally, I like Byakuren's superhuman mode the best. It boost her attack, defense, and speed, gives her access to more moves, didn't damage the ring(no crying Kappa, yay!), strong but not overpowering(she would've break Tenshi's back with one of her strongest moves if it wasn't for Okuu's aid), reasonable(she is able to do it, not an asspull), can still take damage, and has a time limit. For me it's the most balanced power-ups in the series, and with Byakuren utilizing it effectively, I really enjoyed the fight where she used it. Of course, this is just my opinon. You might think that it's actually OP or something along those lines, you're free to do so but give your reasons. I don't really like the giantification because while it's strong, it isn't very effective considering how the barrier works. The mikos' barrier is even worse, it doesn't have any drawback whatsoever. I don't know what to say about the Kaguya and Mokou's power-ups against HJ.
The barrier mainly negates danmaku, outward magic and seriously dampers certain other abilities. (thus Remilia wouldn't be too affected) As a strength/durability balancer it does a particularly poor job (see Yuugi/Orin vs Ran/Chen).
Though I do wonder about how much of a strain it puts on the Mikos as unlike Byakuren's "super mode", no remark has been said of energy restraints. Though in the matches with them, the God or Vampire was the biggest concern.
As far as Suwako's characterization? One could semi-thank Yuuka for that and the logic that being an ancient god of japan, she likely got her hands dirty.
In regards to dei Shirou's Reimu, it's very much a Tohonifun's Reimu (ignoring her characterization in Koumakyou). Maybe a little less personable. Without having to go back over the whole series to count, the only truly villainous thing I can recall her doing involved her manipulation of the Taoists. Even her lowest moment, the much reviled conclusion to Kirisame Familiars battle, we only have Marisa's interpretations of what she thought Reimu was doing, and she changed that from "prepared to kill Nitori," to "let herself run out of control" (with the traditional empty eyes), to "bluffing." Her only promise was she intended to make them their loss appear pathetic, pretty much just standard trash talking.
monhan said: Well, to be fair, without her sword, Youmu can't do much.
Except, Youmu's power isn't just her sword, it's her swordsmanship training, which includes footwork - she is innately one of the fastest in Gensokyo. (Fan interpretations of 100 Yojana putting her speed at several hundred thousand times the speed of sound.) That doesn't come from her swords, it's her innate power. Sure, she might not punch down mountains or be capable of those physically impossible speeds when dampened, but if everyone else keeps their super speeds, it makes no sense that she's the only one who doesn't.
In fact, the entire reason why Youmu is even supposed to be able to be capable of bringing a sword to a danmaku fight is that her foot speed is so incredible that she can simply close the distance in a "flash" and bring her swords to bear. Youmu's speed is as much her innate signature ability as it is Aya's. (Aya uses her tengu wind fan as her weapon, even though it's her speed that she always talks about.)
Meanwhile, many other characters are capable of using super-speed (I.E. Hijiri, Remi) that are even less an intrinsic part of their powers.
The only explanation given for why characters like Hijiri or Remi can keep going with their powers even though they are sealed is that "their powers are only weakened". Hence, the manga basically relies upon the notion that if characters can use their powers inside the barrier without any extra "cheating" explanation (I.E. Marisa's Hakkero transfusion) must either have simply have always been that much stronger, or have some completely unfair and arbitrary way around the barrier that Yukari's giving them (which is even more of a cheat than "cheating" by things like Hakkero transfusion).
This, in turn, infers that the manga portrays Youmu as simply being on a completely different power scale as other characters who should, by all rights, be her equal, such as Sakuya.
This is all just based off the assumption that "power levels" remain the same throughout the manga and are treated equally... and part of my point is that they aren't. Characters get arbitrary power spikes and no-sell crap that should level them all the time.
Which, again, isn't terribly much of a claim - we've already had plenty of complaints of characters ass-pulling instant recoveries and going into Super Sayan power levels from nowhere to win a match they'd been losing for the past 50 strips.
That said, what power ups do you think is the best and the worst in this series and why?
It's not so much what powers themselves are or do as it is whether or not the rules behind the powers are consistent.
Part of how you keep the tension going in series like these is that you have to be (A) invested in the characters, and (B) believe that they not only can lose, but that the means by which they win or lose are relatable and understandable.
When Reimu basically just reveals at the end of the Kirisame Familia match that she wasn't really using her full power up until the point where she felt it was time to end the match, or for that matter, that Remi can just get up and use Super-Speed after supposedly being repeatedly hit by her weaknesses it's basically just Deus Ex Machina. The rules don't matter - apparently those vampire weaknesses aren't weaknesses at all.
It tells the reader that any attempt to follow along with what's happening in the story is a waste of time, because some arbitrary bullshit will come along and force the match to end for the pre-determined victors completely regardless of how the match actually went.
That's why the whole principle of Magic A is Magic A is so important - you have to lay down the groundwork of what vampires are weak against and how weak they are against it at the start of every vampire movie, because without doing so, it's not a story you can get involved in, it's just a bunch of stuff happening because of arbitrary things you don't understand. Once you've said vampires are weak to silver, if you show vampire hunters using silver bullets with machine guns, you can understand why it's effective and why they're fearsome to vampires, and why it's a big threat when some vampire decides to alter vampires to be immune to silver's threat or something.
Hence, if you want to say that Suwako's powers are generally sealed, but she can use her iron rings as brass knuckles, then that's fine, just so long as it's always the same brass knuckles that always have the same power.
The biggest problem I have is that the barrier is applied so utterly arbitrarily that it seems to let any power in at any time whenever the Deus Ex Machina needs it to happen, including players repeatedly showing new tricks from nowhere.
There's nothing wrong with having the hero kill the new silver-immune vampire with, say, a gun dipped in holy water if holy water was previously described as a way to also hurt vampires, and that bullets with some sort of material vampires are weak against behave against vampires like normal bullets against humans. (Or, for that matter, sticking garlic in the tips of the bullets or something...) If those rules weren't established, however, he might as well have just pulled a phlebotenum ray from his pocket and slew all the vampires by twirling it around, making everyone in the audience question why they waited until the end of the movie to bother doing that.
FJH said: In regards to dei Shirou's Reimu, it's very much a Tohonifun's Reimu (ignoring her characterization in Koumakyou).
Which is, really, one of the worst versions of Reimu I've ever seen, and why I make special note of how aggravating it is to see this version.
FJH said: Even her lowest moment, the much reviled conclusion to Kirisame Familiars battle, we only have Marisa's interpretations of what she thought Reimu was doing, and she changed that from "prepared to kill Nitori," to "let herself run out of control" (with the traditional empty eyes), to "bluffing." Her only promise was she intended to make them their loss appear pathetic, pretty much just standard trash talking.
Well, look at what that really says about (this interpretation of) Reimu:
She basically won by pretending to "accidentally" go out of control and only barely not murder Marisa's friends because Marisa got Remi to stop Reimu.
The only thing she was "bluffing" about was that it was an accident. The truth is she was deliberately, directly threatening to murder Marisa's friends if she didn't get what she wanted. (She had to hide that she was basically delivering a death threat lest the crowd completely turn on her or she risk disqualification.)
And it's not just that she's basically revealing herself as a ruthless murderer, it's also saying, "By the way, I can kill you and everyone you love any time I feel like it. The only reason you worms continue to struggle is because I let you. Remember that your place is to crawl at my feet, lest I stomp your lives out." (And keep in mind, Yuyuko basically already fired what she honestly believed was a shot that would kill Satori before Hijiri jumped in. Satori even read Yuyu's mind to confirm it. So it's not like Dei Shirou was against portraying Touhous as the sorts of killers they aren't in canon.)
... and to continue in that theme, this strip is Reimu basically saying that all the struggles of everyone up to date has been boring and unworthy of her attention. The efforts of everyone else, everyone else's potentials and struggles and very lives mean nothing because she's the Hakurei Miko, who should win because of Divine Right of Birth. All your efforts just mean you haven't yet understood the difference between being born special or not yet.
NWSiaCB said: Which is, really, one of the worst versions of Reimu I've ever seen, and why I make special note of how aggravating it is to see this version.
I don't really like that Reimu either. He basically made her frustratingly unbeatable, even if she's pitted against multiple final bosses and extra bosses like in that Seiga comic. They just can't win. But recently, he's been doing this to Seiga, still beatable but really, really annoying. Basically picking on everyone without reasons and someone helped her, like Yuuka in recent doujin, and just keep on bothering everyone. Seems like Chado have a thing with characters that just don't give a fuck.
Do note that I don't hate Reimu, I actually kinda like her because she's unique, I only hate it when she's pictured as an uncaring despicable bitch. That's why there's one scene that I really loved. In one of Chado's doujin, Utsuho actually made a fool out of Reimu, and that's just glorious. Utsuho being one of my favorite and his interpretation of her that I also liked, only make it even more sweet.
NWSiaCB said: Well, look at what that really says about (this interpretation of) Reimu:
She basically won by pretending to "accidentally" go out of control and only barely not murder Marisa's friends because Marisa got Remi to stop Reimu.
The only thing she was "bluffing" about was that it was an accident. The truth is she was deliberately, directly threatening to murder Marisa's friends if she didn't get what she wanted. (She had to hide that she was basically delivering a death threat lest the crowd completely turn on her or she risk disqualification.)
And it's not just that she's basically revealing herself as a ruthless murderer, it's also saying, "By the way, I can kill you and everyone you love any time I feel like it. The only reason you worms continue to struggle is because I let you. Remember that your place is to crawl at my feet, lest I stomp your lives out." (And keep in mind, Yuyuko basically already fired what she honestly believed was a shot that would kill Satori before Hijiri jumped in. Satori even read Yuyu's mind to confirm it. So it's not like Dei Shirou was against portraying Touhous as the sorts of killers they aren't in canon.)
... and to continue in that theme, this strip is Reimu basically saying that all the struggles of everyone up to date has been boring and unworthy of her attention. The efforts of everyone else, everyone else's potentials and struggles and very lives mean nothing because she's the Hakurei Miko, who should win because of Divine Right of Birth. All your efforts just mean you haven't yet understood the difference between being born special or not yet.
I don't think it's that cruel, I sure hope it's not. That's just an extreme character change. Almost like Stripe Pattern's Byakuren(though you can argue on that, go on).
They really need to drive into the match now or...Do you think they are going to leave entirely? -AkyuuRemi is going to lose the momentum from this interruption. -PatchouliShe really should go as far as attacking them right this second to get the match moving. -PatchouliThat princess shows herself to get on the bandwagon, and then if things turn for the worse, she gets off in a heartbeat. -PatchouliI was right thinking that she was a nasty piece of work. -PatchouliReimu now takes the mic.Once she finds herself in that situation, Remi really can't do anything. -PatchouliAnd so, the Immortals and Team Moriya leave the ring.You sure about this?This isn't the best turn of events.Episode 979: Bring ItFrom the artist's Pixiv pageThe Flowing Princess and the Halting Shrine MaidenI hear you all sort of going on about this, that, and the other...To be perfectly frank with you all......I really couldn't give a damn about this tournament.Oh, what's this?Absolutely.Unfortunately for her, she's calmed down enough to start worrying about Sakuya. -Patchouli