The perspective's not so hot here. The foot that's in the air is drawn larger, even though it should rightfully be about the same distance from the camera as her other foot, or slightly further away if anything.
The perspective's not so hot here. The foot that's in the air is drawn larger, even though it should rightfully be about the same distance from the camera as her other foot, or slightly further away if anything.
Left foot should be farther behind judging by the angle of the left calf, so it makes sense that the right foot is drawn larger; it's closer
Left foot should be farther behind judging by the angle of the left calf, so it makes sense that the right foot is drawn larger; it's closer
First glance made it look like her left leg was going straight down. If her calf is bending backwards, though, it looks like she has a broken bone somewhere.
Yeah, but it shouldn't be foreshortened to an extent where the limb looks detached (and the thigh is also too thick).
I wouldn't call it detached, the style is very reminiscent of superhuman body types drawn by artists like Kim Hyung Tae. Does this detract from the quality of the image?
As for the thickness, I'm not sure why that is an issue besides personal tastes. The thick_thighs tag would yield many images that could be considered 'too thick'. Would I be in the wrong to group this proportion ratio with characters like Felicia or Chun Li? I would also bring up Kim Hyung Tae and similar artists' styles when it comes to this style of body.
It comes down to this: is this style grotesquely disproportion enough that it negatively impacts the overall image? Nothing else is wrong with it: lineart, colouring, shading, clothing detail, skin/clothing/hair textures, face, and the rest of the anatomy immediately above waist / below the knees.
Yes it's not an exact replication of the human anatomy, but my understanding is that fantastic proportions and bodies are expected in anime-style illustrations. In my humble opinion, this image falls within that boundary. The exception is when these proportions are massively grotesque.
feline_lump said:
First glance made it look like her left leg was going straight down. If her calf is bending backwards, though, it looks like she has a broken bone somewhere.
Nah, her left leg is stepping and propelling her forward, kinda like this but at a steeper angle:
Just look where her thigh is going. And then draw her buttock in your head. This would be awfully broad and her right side is pushed too far forward then. The thighs is misplaced and/or to thick.
Just look where her thigh is going. And then draw her buttock in your head. This would be awfully broad and her right side is pushed too far forward then. The thighs is misplaced and/or to thick.
You can see a very subtle panty shot showing where her crotch is, meaning her buttocks should start right at the same level. Factor in the foreshortening and pose, and my only conclusion is that the thighs are generously thick. Anatomy is plausible. Thick legs are fine: it has been tagged as such. Does this severely impact the quality enough to warrant deletion in spite of the other qualities of the image?
You can see a very subtle panty shot showing where her crotch is, meaning her buttocks should start right at the same level. Factor in the foreshortening and pose, and my only conclusion is that the thighs are generously thick. Anatomy is plausible. Thick legs are fine: it has been tagged as such. Does this severely impact the quality enough to warrant deletion in spite of the other qualities of the image?
Well, the last sentence is more or less admitting that there is indeed a valid quality concern. If it's ok for deletion: We will see. But 3 poor quality marks are probably not helping. So it probably is enough to warrant a deletion (It looks really off).
Problem with that is that her leg starts bending in the opposite direction below the knee. The way she's balanced reminds me of how I broke my foot some time ago.
I can understand forgiving some side details, but my view is that if an artist fails to correctly draw a major focal point of an image, it seriously detracts from the rest of the work. Further, some artists don't just make mistakes, but fundamentally struggle with the rules of anatomy and perspective - even looking at the top half in isolation, her missing forearm jumped out at me, and then her weirdly-angled neck.
Well, the last sentence is more or less admitting that there is indeed a valid quality concern. If it's ok for deletion: We will see. But 3 poor quality marks are probably not helping. So it probably is enough to warrant a deletion (It looks really off).
It's more of a question, actually. I've never gotten a straight answer whenever I ask whether or not the overall quality of an image is impacted enough to warrant deletion. I hope I'm not being an annoyance; I'm genuinely confused at these wave of image flags with regards to waist/hip ratios and thick legs that do not cross into the grotesque territory.
No offense, I think you're mixing up representations of different body types with quality concerns, with complete disregard to the overall quality of the image.
Are the legs so thick that the characters becomes gross? Or is having thick legs itself of an issue?
Again, I bring up example of art styles such as those drawn by Kim Hyung Tae or characters like Felicia or Chun Lia.
It's more of a question, actually. I've never gotten a straight answer whenever I ask whether or not the overall quality of an image is impacted enough to warrant deletion. I hope I'm not being an annoyance; I'm genuinely confused at these wave of image flags with regards to waist/hip ratios and thick legs that do not cross into the grotesque territory.
No offense, I think you're mixing up representations of different body types with quality concerns, with complete disregard to the overall quality of the image.
Are the legs so thick that the characters becomes gross? Or is having thick legs itself of an issue?
Again, I bring up example of art styles such as those drawn by Kim Hyung Tae or characters like Felicia or Chun Lia.
You have to ask the original flagger for that. I can only say what I see when I see this post and I have to explain it in my way. If a post warrants a deletion is something you simply can't answer with a clear yes or no in most cases. Reason is that posts do always have something that speaks for and against them. The thing with Chun-Li is that her legs do not look detached. They might be thick, and yes she is an overeaggerated character like everyone in SF. But there, the internal anatomy makes still sense, since no limb looks off placed or even detached. That is the difference here: Her right leg up to her hip is looking pretty big and therefore it probably deserve a deletion (the upper body is perfectly fine, so that speaks for that post to stay). The argument with the panties...I don't know what to think of that: It really doesn't affect her right hip + leg, so it still does look off.
You can see a very subtle panty shot showing where her crotch is, meaning her buttocks should start right at the same level. Factor in the foreshortening and pose, and my only conclusion is that the thighs are generously thick. Anatomy is plausible. Thick legs are fine: it has been tagged as such. Does this severely impact the quality enough to warrant deletion in spite of the other qualities of the image?
No, it's just not plausible. Her torso is mounted on her hips so asymmetrically, she practically looks like a uniped that had a second leg stapled onto her side. If her torso comes down to where her shirt ends, then her butt is basically only an inch tall, especially on the left (viewer right) side, yet somehow flares out to being about 2.5 times as wide in the space of that inch. That hips-waist ratio would be completely impossible without an organ-crushing corset regimen. Plus, you could fit your whole fist through that thigh gap. It's like a normal human's upper body was welded (sloppily) onto some giant's lower body.
You're also wrong about the left (viewer right) leg being thinner than the torso. That thigh is thicker than the hips to begin with, and if you add in the foreshortening you try to call upon to defend how disproportionately sized the two legs are, then that thigh would be even more massive than the torso.
Plus, if you want to talk about the legs, why does the left (viewer right) shin seem to bow so much? The right ankle is also skewed, as if the leg leads off to the right of the foot, as well.
As far as the last sentence goes, why not flip that around? What other qualities about this image are good enough to overcome the massive, glaring problem that is its inescapable centerpiece? OK, so there's some good detail on the hair and belts, but that's like complimenting the garnish of a burned roast. The obvious focal point of attention, and what the whole point of the image would therefore be, would have to be the combination of the pose, with special focus upon the hips (ruined by how wonky the hips and legs look), or the sheer exaggerated size of the hips to start with... which is exactly what is so wrong about the image. (You can't say the focus is the chainsaw, it's hidden behind her head - possibly so that the artist wouldn't have to draw the details of the engine. You can't say it's the face or expression, either, because that's squirreled away in a small upper corner while the hips take up the largest, central, most obvious piece of real estate in the image, and that hint of pantyshot you point out is there explicitly to help draw attention down to - you guessed it - those utterly broken hips.)
No, it's just not plausible. Her torso is mounted on her hips so asymmetrically, she practically looks like a uniped that had a second leg stapled onto her side. If her torso comes down to where her shirt ends, then her butt is basically only an inch tall, especially on the left (viewer right) side, yet somehow flares out to being about 2.5 times as wide in the space of that inch. That hips-waist ratio would be completely impossible without an organ-crushing corset regimen. Plus, you could fit your whole fist through that thigh gap. It's like a normal human's upper body was welded (sloppily) onto some giant's lower body.
You're also wrong about the left (viewer right) leg being thinner than the torso. That thigh is thicker than the hips to begin with, and if you add in the foreshortening you try to call upon to defend how disproportionately sized the two legs are, then that thigh would be even more massive than the torso.
Plus, if you want to talk about the legs, why does the left (viewer right) shin seem to bow so much? The right ankle is also skewed, as if the leg leads off to the right of the foot, as well.
As far as the last sentence goes, why not flip that around? What other qualities about this image are good enough to overcome the massive, glaring problem that is its inescapable centerpiece? OK, so there's some good detail on the hair and belts, but that's like complimenting the garnish of a burned roast. The obvious focal point of attention, and what the whole point of the image would therefore be, would have to be the combination of the pose, with special focus upon the hips (ruined by how wonky the hips and legs look), or the sheer exaggerated size of the hips to start with... which is exactly what is so wrong about the image. (You can't say the focus is the chainsaw, it's hidden behind her head - possibly so that the artist wouldn't have to draw the details of the engine. You can't say it's the face or expression, either, because that's squirreled away in a small upper corner while the hips take up the largest, central, most obvious piece of real estate in the image, and that hint of pantyshot you point out is there explicitly to help draw attention down to - you guessed it - those utterly broken hips.)
Not sure why this has exploded with everyone pointing out every single imperfection outside of what the flag listed.
I took some time to label what I think would be hidden behind the clothing: red for contours, blue for 'skeletal' alignment.
This is what I see. Does this help? Please correct where I have something erroneously marked or completely off.
I certainly agree that the assessment about hips-waist ratio / thick legs, but I don't share the conclusion that it is utterly broken, wonky and ruined. This ratio where 'It's like a normal human's upper body was welded (sloppily) onto some giant's lower body' is a common (from my perspective) rendition of proportions seen in anime-style art.
I mean, if we really come down to it, anime-style female characters almost always has longer legs (longer than the height of the head to hip combined) and generally slender torsos/waists. How is this common portrayal of the human body deemed plausibly acceptable but now illustrations like the subject in question are not, despite it's common occurrence and the sheer amount of artist, characters and art-styles on Danbooru depicting this kind of proportion for years?
Sorry for using the 'but there's others just like it' argument, but I missed the memo where these kinds of body types are now unacceptable.
This is what I see. Does this help? Please correct where I have something erroneously marked or completely off.
I certainly agree that the assessment about hips-waist ratio / thick legs, but I don't share the conclusion that it is utterly broken, wonky and ruined. This ratio where 'It's like a normal human's upper body was welded (sloppily) onto some giant's lower body' is a common (from my perspective) rendition of proportions seen in anime-style art.
I mean, if we really come down to it, anime-style female characters almost always has longer legs (longer than the height of the head to hip combined) and generally slender torsos/waists. How is this common portrayal of the human body deemed plausibly acceptable but now illustrations like the subject in question are not, despite it's common occurrence and the sheer amount of artist, characters and art-styles on Danbooru depicting this kind of proportion for years?
Sorry for using the 'but there's others just like it' argument, but I missed the memo where these kinds of body types are now unacceptable.
You're drawing that left leg/buttock as going up a lot higher than I see it. The skirt flares up and back over there, so her leg should stop a lot lower.
This also absolutely is not how the majority of anime images are drawn. It's how a very small minority of artists draw characters specifically for those who value giant thighs over remotely realistic proportions. (And giant breasts in impossible_clothes aimed at breast fetishists are more common...) Again, you're openly admitting the disproportionate hips-waist ratio isn't normal even in anime, where the rules can be applied a little more fast and loose compared to strict artistic anatomy nudes, so why are you trying to then say that's how all anime figures are depicted?
I'm not sure what you mean by anime-style characters having longer legs than the length from the head to the hip being odd, because that's how the average human body is, as well. An average human drawn realistically is 7 1/2 heads tall, with 4 of those heads being the legs. If that seems different from real life, just remember that in real life, you're viewing things from head-height (so foreshortening makes the legs look smaller, especially when you are up close), and often looking directly at other heads so that you aren't seeing the legs all the time (unless you're specifically looking at legs... but then, you're probably not paying attention to their proportionality compared to the whole body, either). Anime artists generally refer to proportions by heads, as well, although they don't all use the same basic figure. (CLAMP, rather notably, uses more "Western fashion sketch"-style 9 head figures.) Anything less than 3 heads, incidentally, is considered a chibi.
I'm guessing you're bringing that up because I was talking about the focus of the image being on the hips, but that's a poor conclusion of how a figure needs to be drawn to draw focus to anything but the hips, since it's all about composition. One can simply draw nothing below the mid-thigh to shift the center of the image upwards, or even draw an outright bust to specifically make the face the focus, and one can always change the character's posture to be kneeling or otherwise reduce the screen area the legs take up if one wanted to shift focus away from the legs. Even without that, this image could have easily changed the orientation of the chainsaw so that it was more vertical instead of hiding behind the girl's head so that the image would stretch much higher and pull the center of the image up higher on her figure. However, simply being the center of the image doesn't necessarily make it the center of focus - it's that giant pale spot on her thighs that draw attention; most of the image is a desaturated mid-tone greyish color or black, with only the skintone and hair color really standing out, and that automatically draws attention. What's the biggest splotch of brightly colored skin you can see? Those giant thighs, made disproportionate (and breaking the hips to do so) specifically to draw attention to them. THAT'S what makes them the center of the image's focus. (Being closer to the center of the image helps, though.)
If you want to talk about "images like this being on Danbooru before," then all I can say is that at any given time, there tend to be a half-dozen images being flagged for this exact problem. (In particular, artists who do the Boobs and Butt Pose, or "I'll make the girl bend over, so I can get away with drawing an ass twice as large as the entire rest of her body, combined.")
As far as "exploding" goes, it's merely that you're persistently defending this image, while others disagree. If you're trying to argue against what others are saying, you shouldn't be surprised that they argue back.
This also absolutely is not how the majority of anime images are drawn. It's how a very small minority of artists draw characters specifically for those who value giant thighs over remotely realistic proportions. (And giant breasts in impossible_clothes aimed at breast fetishists are more common...) Again, you're openly admitting the disproportionate hips-waist ratio isn't normal even in anime, where the rules can be applied a little more fast and loose compared to strict artistic anatomy nudes, so why are you trying to then say that's how all anime figures are depicted?
My point was not that artists and art that depict this style of body is the majority of anime-style art. Considering the sheer diversity of the themes and subjects that can be found in anime-style art alone, it is obvious that there is no dominance among them besides ubiquitous ones (five fingers, two arms etc).
Rather I was emphasizing that characters drawn with these kinds of proportions and the artists that tend to create them are not some fringe oddity. I'm talking about the variable depictions of visual details that cater to different interests, not the large majority of traits that are prerequisite to recognize a character as human. This is where the 'fast and loose' adherence to anatomy in anime-style art rules allows for several artistic approaches to various ideal body types. Hips and thighs are among the common items in that spectrum, and are certainly among the top contenders alongside breasts where strict anatomical adherence to realistic proportions is explored by artists. In other words, coming across a character with especially generous hips and/or meaty legs is an eventuality that is not hard to achieve with casual browsing on galleries like Danbooru or Pixiv.
After all, we even have two healthy tags for this kind of depiction; wide_hips and thick_thighs. Both tags are filled with high quality images that are in good standing, so my understanding from that is having body types with exemplified hips and thighs are not reasons alone to flag image for quality.
NWSiaCB said:
I'm guessing you're bringing that up because I was talking about the focus of the image being on the hips, but that's a poor conclusion of how a figure needs to be drawn to draw focus to anything but the hips, since it's all about composition. One can simply draw nothing below the mid-thigh to shift the center of the image upwards, or even draw an outright bust to specifically make the face the focus, and one can always change the character's posture to be kneeling or otherwise reduce the screen area the legs take up if one wanted to shift focus away from the legs. Even without that, this image could have easily changed the orientation of the chainsaw so that it was more vertical instead of hiding behind the girl's head so that the image would stretch much higher and pull the center of the image up higher on her figure. However, simply being the center of the image doesn't necessarily make it the center of focus - it's that giant pale spot on her thighs that draw attention; most of the image is a desaturated mid-tone greyish color or black, with only the skintone and hair color really standing out, and that automatically draws attention. What's the biggest splotch of brightly colored skin you can see? Those giant thighs, made disproportionate (and breaking the hips to do so) specifically to draw attention to them. THAT'S what makes them the center of the image's focus. (Being closer to the center of the image helps, though.)
No argument that the hips and legs are the focus of the image. That goes in hand in hand with why these parts of the character are drawn the way they are.
If you look at this particular artist's other works, it is clear that they have a have firm grasp of anatomy, proportion and perspective. That this character is drawn with this waist/hip ratio and large thighs is obviously deliberate since it goes hand in hand with the dynamic pose and focus. As with your example of giant breats + impossible clothes, this is a clear case of the artist playing fast and loose with anatomy to draw focus to these parts. This technique is quite common, and should not be confused with poor sense of anatomy.
NWSiaCB said:
If you want to talk about "images like this being on Danbooru before," then all I can say is that at any given time, there tend to be a half-dozen images being flagged for this exact problem. (In particular, artists who do the Boobs and Butt Pose, or "I'll make the girl bend over, so I can get away with drawing an ass twice as large as the entire rest of her body, combined.")
Yes, and my issue with this is that it's a new thing that has generated several discussions. I'm not alone on this stance with regards to flaggers applying a narrow lens with regards to anatomy on illustrations that depict an accepted body style in anime art. The point of contention is whether or not this is a issue with personal tastes vis-a-vis strict anatomical standards or if the image is actually bad quality.
NWSiaCB said:
As far as "exploding" goes, it's merely that you're persistently defending this image, while others disagree. If you're trying to argue against what others are saying, you shouldn't be surprised that they argue back.
Actually, I'm persistently questioning the logic behind the flag. And in essence, all flags with this kind of logic.
I contested that bad waist-hips ratio as an inaccurate assessment due to the flagger's application of a very narrow anatomical standard to a body that is pushing the boundaries for effect, a body that is found aplenty in anime-style art and on Danbooru (hence, why I constantly name specific characters and artists). The wide hips tag is an accepted thing.
I also contested the assessment that the thighs are too thick, since this seems like more of a personal issue with the character design rather than the image quality. Again we have thick thighs for this kind of detail.
A valid concern would be if the connection between the waist and legs are fundamentally broken, but as I described earlier, this would not be an issue if the image is treated in the same way as other art that emphasize hips and thighs.
What I am surprised about, is how other commentators 'exploded' by bringing in various other nit picks about the image in defense of the flag. If these other issues were that glaring, they would have been included in the flag, but they weren't. For this particular discussion about the flag, they are irrelevant. They are essentially looking for more reasons to delete the image.