WOW! this is really cool, regardless of plot this is the first FORCE NEXT that i truly like without any bad points against. I don't know how this will be used or affect the plot but just by looks Deville has just overshadowed the entire Huckebein family in terms of coolness xD!
Okay, there is a limit and this limit has been reached about a godzillion times now. Comartis is right. This is not Nanoha anymore. I miss the old days. Sigh...
Tetsamaru said: Its devolved into a Strike Witches ripoff now. This aint no more Sailor Moon now.
Fixed. And Sailor Moon is infinitely superior to Force in its current form, crap fight scenes and all. Neither Force nor SM can hold a candle to the first two seasons of Nanoha.
Comartemis said: Fixed. And Sailor Moon is infinitely superior to Force in its current form, crap fight scenes and all. Neither Force nor SM can hold a candle to the first two seasons of Nanoha.
It's annoying when people "fix" quotes into something that's just wrong. *rolls eyes*
All because Signum got beat. Shee.
If Signum beat Cypha or fought her to a stand-still, then everyone would be like "why are these guys dangerous again? It's like StrikerS all over again."
Signum gets owned? HOLY ****! These guys are VERY dangerous!
Nanya01 said: It's annoying when people "fix" quotes into something that's just wrong. *rolls eyes*
All because Signum got beat. Shee.
Magic-wielding girls get recruited into a military organization (which doesn't act much like an actual military) to fight evil with magitek. Yup, it's a Strike Witches ripoff now. Shame they aren't magical girls any more, then it would still be pretty original!
And please explain to me how you can read "Force sucks because all the magical girl tropes are gone and the series has turned into a generic sci-fi action series" and get "Force sucks because Signum got her ass kicked".
F91 said: Dunno what you guys are talking about. It's the same Nanoha as it's always been except perhaps on a broader scale.
It's the series itself which has changed, not necessarily Nanoha herself. MGLN was at its best when there was an even mix of magical girls and military sci-fi / mecha action. That was what made this series interesting to begin with, it was about magical girls who actually knew how to put on really good fight scenes. StrikerS started leaning too far towards the military sci-fi angle when the cast grew up and turned into law enforcement officials who have to answer to superior officers and shit, and then Force finished the job by ditching the last traces of the magical girl tropes StrikerS still had. At this point, I'm only reading Force for the characters, the plot no longer holds my interest.
ViVid has the opposite problem, not only did they get rid of pretty much all the Gundamish elements, they also got rid of any real source of conflict by making Vivio and Einheart make nice with each other in... what, chapter two? Three, maybe? And don't get me started on the bunny plushie devices, AKA the single most retarded idea to ever come out of this franchise.
Comartemis said: Magic-wielding girls get recruited into a military organization (which doesn't act much like an actual military) to fight evil with magitek. Yup, it's a Strike Witches ripoff now. Shame they aren't magical girls any more, then it would still be pretty original!
Um, it's been like that since season 1. Really, only the first bit of season 1 was traditional magic girl stuff, but then Chrono showed up and things changed. Saying it's a Strike Witches rip off holds not water outside of very base premises.
I was speaking of Nanoha as a franchise, not the character. Nanoha has always been heavy on the magitek from the get go. The universe's entire 'magic' system is based on technology, particularly when it comes to the devices. All this new tech stuff that's been introduced since then are all expansions of that concept. Working for a military organization, and all the other 'Gundamish' aspects have been present since season 1 and it's been growing ever since. One of Nanoha's main appeals is that it's not your typical magic girl show and as time has gone on, this idea has only solidified.
At it's base Nanoha is still a magic girl franchise, featuring super powered girls doing battle with what is refered to as 'magic.' Even in Force this is the case, it's simply being applied in a new way.
As for Deville's transformation here, it's in line with Hayate morphing into Reinforce, or Vivio going into her Saint Kaiser mode. It's nothing new to the franchise. Indeed, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Magic-using girl =/= magical girl. And you make the mistake of thinking that a magical girl isn't a magical girl if she's not fighting monsters of the week. Try reading Fate Kaleid Liner Prisms Ilya sometime, especially the second season. You'll see what I mean.
There are plenty cookie-cutter magic girl series out there, which is what you seem to like, with saying that Sailor Moon is better than ViVid and Force.
But Nanoha ISN'T cookie-cutter.
And that's why it's good.
Seriously, if I wanna see a straight-up magic girl anime, I'll watch Devil Hunter Yohko or Cutey Honey.
But, what drew me to Nanoha (the series) in the first place was the mecha references and shout-outs that were in the series.
If this series was pure magic girl, I would have skipped over it a LONG time ago.
Half of the first season was cookie cutter mahou shoujo. Then they hung a lampshade on it and turned toward gundam, and have hung a lampshade on that a couple times. And DBZ.
Still waiting for the Takamachi ninjas to destroy a boss.
Are you even reading my fucking posts, Nanya? I do not like "cookie cutter" mg shows, I like Nanoha for the mecha references and the fact that Nanoha loves being a mage and all that too. But if I wanted straight sci-fi fantasy like Force is, I'd just watch Strike Witches or Macross or something. Likewise, if I just wanted pure MG I'd watch Pretty Cure or CCS instead if ViVid. Nanoha's appeal is in the melding of genres to create something new, but Force and ViVid have both lost half of what made the franchise interesting in the first place. Force lost the magical girls (they're just mages now) and ViVid exchanged the mecha for plushies.
Gonna have to agree with Comartemis here. They arent "Magical Girls" anymore. They are just people that use magic. And theres a huge difference between the two. When i first got into MSLN i thought the fighting would have been a combination of Triangle Hearts + Magical girls. Still sad it wasnt what i hoped for but the 1st season still blew my socks off. 2nd Season was diffenetly just the 1st season with added bonuses. Then StrikerS came in and now everything really did go towards the militrastic setting. I would "Almost" compare it to the Sakura Wars series in its current form. I actually missed all the cool Doujins that were made after the 2nd season ended. It was up to interpretation on how the series could have evolved "If" it had kept on going.
Well, Vivid at least still has the magic girl + Gundam thing going on. It's just that the Gundam in question is G Gundam XD
So I'm curious. What exactly does Force need to make it more magic girl and less straight sci-fi? Does the cast need to be 15 years younger? Do they need lengthy transformation sequences? Does it need a plot that only involves collecting some sort of MacGuffin and fighting off rivals? Must they draw all their strength from friendship? Perhaps I'm being narrow minded but on the whole magic girl shows are targeted at young girls, so any of the above suggestions would make things more kiddie.
The way I see it this is just the result of a natural progression. End part of season 1 set things off to the sci-fi territory, then A's advanced that, StrikerS was knee deep in it, and now we have Force. It may have roots in the magic girl genre, but from there it's grown into a mighty tree. It's matured over time, much like the cast themselves.
You're free to not like it, of course, but it's simply grown up. Everything that was great about it is still there, it's simply expressed differently.
Nanoha's creator is a huge Suber Robot Wars fanboy. The show itself features magic-technology hybrids to the nth degree. An evolution like this is to be expected.
Keep in mind, Force was outright intended to be less of a Magical Girl series. Note the difference in titles: 魔法少女リリカルなのは - "Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha" ... 魔法戦記リリカルなのはForce - "Magical War Chronicle Lyrical Nanoha Force"
Going literally from "Magical Girl" to "Magical War Chronicle" is very telling.
But, seriously, dude - no longer liking a show because you can no longer manage to cram it into the "Magical Girl Series" box? Really?
F91 said: So I'm curious. What exactly does Force need to make it more magic girl and less straight sci-fi? Does the cast need to be 15 years younger? Do they need lengthy transformation sequences? Does it need a plot that only involves collecting some sort of MacGuffin and fighting off rivals? Must they draw all their strength from friendship? Perhaps I'm being narrow minded but on the whole magic girl shows are targeted at young girls, so any of the above suggestions would make things more kiddie.
You aren't just being narrow-minded, you're also being kind of dense. Nanoha Classic had 3 of the 4 traits you listed and you could make a decent argument for the fourth one as well. And boy, the first season sure was shallow and kiddie-oriented, wasn't it? *eyeroll*
I think your problem is that you have no experience with really fun and creative magical girl shows besides Nanoha so you assume they're all generic kiddie crap. My advice is that you do a little research, watch or read a few seasons. Start by Googling these terms: "Mai-Hime", "Prisma Ilya", and "Sailor Nothing".
sgcdonmai said: But, seriously, dude - no longer liking a show because you can no longer manage to cram it into the "Magical Girl Series" box? Really?
Um, yes? I've said it before, without the magical girl elements, Force is just a sub-par sci-fi series, and there are dozens of shows which do straight sci-fi action better. Why should I waste my time on Force when I could be watching Macross or Gundam or the Index/Railgun duo, or even The Inspectors for my SRW kick?
I'm with Comartemis, the first season was endearing and entertaining to me but avergae in the end, A's explode into all kinds of awesome, blending perfectly mecha references and exciting action with elements like freindship, courage and will(even when they have magitek since the beginning it always being more based on their own inner power and will to fight, thus making the fights and the conflicts all more touching and exciting. In FORCE, resolution, will and courage do NOTHING for you unless you have an AEC equipment, and still didn't work as well as before), after being mostly filler, ViVid finally get glimpses of doing something interesting or at least entertaining(still not as good as past works but i finally came in terms with the fact that ViVid exist just to give candies to the fanbase and i like some kinds of candies so yeah).
Thankfully we still get the MOVIEs AU and the corresponding mangas wich retake the original spirit of the franchise and turns up to eleven to remind us why Nanoha is so great in first place, A's movie approaches and we gotta have to see again the exciting conflict of the Book of Darkness where the fierce clash of will and wishes will bring the flames of battle back again. That's what i want to see, high powered magical girls fighting to the extreme with all her courage on spectacular battles. I agree also in that if i want to see mercenaries, grey morality all over the place and karma houdini bastards then i will switch for Macross or Fullmetal Alchemist, at least that people know how to do it well.
Oh and if you think that the power of frindship and will are kiddie elements just watch Magic Knight Rayearth(one of the toughest teams of Magical Girls in history).
mandrake01 said: Oh and if you think that the power of frindship and will are kiddie elements just watch Magic Knight Rayearth(one of the toughest teams of Magical Girls in history).
This guy knows what hes talking about. Bro-fist? While i will admit, its normal to think of the extremes for magical girl animes. The same can be said for any genre as well. If we're gonna bring up oldschool, I really suggest people also watch some Slayers.(Ya, its not exactly a "Magical girl" show)
Comartemis said: You aren't just being narrow-minded, you're also being kind of dense. Nanoha Classic had 3 of the 4 traits you listed and you could make a decent argument for the fourth one as well. And boy, the first season sure was shallow and kiddie-oriented, wasn't it? *eyeroll*
I think your problem is that you have no experience with really fun and creative magical girl shows besides Nanoha so you assume they're all generic kiddie crap. My advice is that you do a little research, watch or read a few seasons. Start by Googling these terms: "Mai-Hime", "Prisma Ilya", and "Sailor Nothing".
Don't be putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that stuff was 'generic kiddie crap.' I said it would make things more kiddie, which it would. Nanoha has always been aimed at an adult male audience, and Force in particular deals with an actual life or death struggle. I know those elements were in season 1, and I liked season 1 just fine. But since you're saying you don't like Force because it's missing that 'magic girl' aspect of it, I listed off things that are considered 'magic girly' that is no longer present. Such things would detract from Force's serious story.
I've seen my fair share of magic girl stuff and I enjoyed them plenty. I've seen My HiME, though I wouldn't call it a magic girl show. The girls had super powers, sure, but the tone and feel of it certainly wasn't like Cardcaptor Sakura or Shugo Chara. My Otome is more like a magic girl show, I'd say, but I guess it all depends on what counts as a magic girl show. Is the only requirement to have girls with magic powers? If so, then Force is still a magic girl title, it's just that the 'girls' in question are in their 20s.
If the only prerequisite to being a magical girl show were to feature girls with magical powers then the genre would encompass shows like Zero no Tsukaima, Fate/Stay Night, Slayers, and dozens of others. What makes a magical girl is that the story is usually about a normal kid or teenager getting magical powers and then developing as a character because of them and the situations they wind up in. It's a lot like the Sentai genre in that respect. Try comparing Pretty Cure to Kamen Rider sometime, I think you'll be surprised how similar they are under the hood.
Mai-Hime is unusual because it's a deconstruction of the magical girl genre, but it's definitely a magical girl series despite the fact that it isn't very "kiddie". If you ever get around to reading Sailor Nothing, I think you'll find it's a lot like what happens when Sailor Moon meets Evangelion in a dark alley; definitely not for kids despite being strongly inspired and heavily based off of one of the hallmark "kiddie" magical girl shows.
Comartemis said: What makes a magical girl is that the story is usually about a normal kid or teenager getting magical powers and then developing as a character because of them and the situations they wind up in.
If that's the case then certainly Thoma falls under this category. Well, except him being boy, anyways. Or you could look at it as Nanoha and the others continuing to develop as characters because of their magical powers and the situations they wind up in.
I never said that all magic girl titles are kiddie. I just said that the majority of them are aimed at young girls. I describe things like the power of friendship as 'kiddie' because, in most cases, such things only appeal to kids because most adults know that in reality things don't work that way. Please note my use of words like "majority" and "most." There is certainly stuff out there that match your description of magic girl and are exceptions.
F91 said: If that's the case then certainly Thoma falls under this category. Well, except him being boy, anyways. Or you could look at it as Nanoha and the others continuing to develop as characters because of their magical powers and the situations they wind up in.
I would agree with you on this point but for two reasons: first, Touma had magic and a device before the series even started, so he wasn't ordinary enough to be a magical boy. Second, he's not the main character. Not anymore at least.
That's the reason why Force sucks even as a pure sci-fi series, the main character got just enough development to make him sympathetic before Tsuzuki dumped him and brought the old heroes back. Touma then turns from a strong character fighting to protect a girl he likes into a wishy-washy victim who can't solve his own problems and needs Nanoha to come swooping in to befriend the hell out of him. The last time I saw a series pull this kind of bullshit main character switcheroo, I was watching Gundam Seed Destiny. What does that tell you?
The point about Nanoha and the rest continuing to develop as characters would be valid... if they actually got any development to begin with. The last time Nanoha had major developments as a character was when she took her first fumbling steps into motherhood, which was only briefly touched upon in StrikerS and has been mostly ignored even in ViVid (which is mostly about Vivio's character development, not Nanoha's). I would love to see a series where Nanoha continues to try to figure out how to be a mother while Vivio tries to figure out how to be a normal girl her age, but evidently Tsuzuki isn't interested in good old-fashioned character growth anymore.
Comartemis said: I would agree with you on this point but for two reasons: first, Touma had magic and a device before the series even started, so he wasn't ordinary enough to be a magical boy. Second, he's not the main character. Not anymore at least.
Consider the setting, though. He was normal by Mid Childan standards. Getting his hands on the powerful Divider abilities is akin to a magicless person getting basic magic.
I wouldn't say it's gotten to Destiny levels yet, as Thoma is still a focal point. Heck, he's -the- focal point as right now everyone is trying to save him. Nanoha hasn't taken over quite yet and the manga does remember he's the protagonist. I say it'll be determined by what happens to him after he's back to normal.
Well, there is a point where characters just stop growing. At some time in people's lives who they are becomes set and there's no more room for development. I think Force recognises this, so instead it has them getting used to having to fight with new weapons and methods.
Tetsamaru said: This guy knows what hes talking about. Bro-fist? While i will admit, its normal to think of the extremes for magical girl animes. The same can be said for any genre as well. If we're gonna bring up oldschool, I really suggest people also watch some Slayers.(Ya, its not exactly a "Magical girl" show)
Slayers is awesome and anyone who says otherwise can eat a Dragon Slave.
F91 said: Well, there is a point where characters just stop growing. At some time in people's lives who they are becomes set and there's no more room for development. I think Force recognises this, so instead it has them getting used to having to fight with new weapons and methods.
I would agree if there wasnt already alot of good stories of already adult "Protagonist"(see the quotes?) that have loads of NEW character deveolopment and are even older than Nanoha and Fate. And ofcourse, by older, i mean in relation to how they look. Wolkenritter being over thousands of years old and all. There is still loads of room for improvement for Nanoha and Fate besides learning some new Bankai/jutsu/power.
Tetsamaru said: There is still loads of room for improvement for Nanoha and Fate besides learning some new Bankai/jutsu/power.
The sad part is that they aren't learning anything they're just getting bigger guns. I will miss the old times where Nanoha was creative and uses her improvisation to create new and versatile ways to use her magic. "Wisdom and tactics" are dead in FORCE.
mandrake01 said: The sad part is that they aren't learning anything they're just getting bigger guns. I will miss the old times where Nanoha was creative and uses her improvisation to create new and versatile ways to use her magic. "Wisdom and tactics" are dead in FORCE.
What wisdom and tactics?
Nanoha's always been about "Bind them up, then blow them up with a bigger explosion".
First season? Divine Buster into SLB onto Fate. A's? Divine Buster Vita, Divine Buster Extension Vita, Excellion Buster Reinforce, Excellion Buster Protection Program. Triple Breaker Protection Program. StrikerS? Excellion Blaster Dieci, Blaster Three Divine Buster Quattro, Blaster Three SLB on Vivio.
Nanoha's always been about "Bind them up, then blow them up with a bigger explosion".
First season? Divine Buster into SLB onto Fate. A's? Divine Buster Vita, Divine Buster Extension Vita, Excellion Buster Reinforce, Excellion Buster Protection Program. Triple Breaker Protection Program. StrikerS? Excellion Blaster Dieci, Blaster Three Divine Buster Quattro, Blaster Three SLB on Vivio.
So, really, nothing new.
How convenient is to forget that all the majority os said spells are created by Nanoha herself after studying battle situations, she create SLB in order to get around Fate's superiority in mana control and combat experience. She adopts the biond strategy after Chrono uses it on her and Yuuno teaches her how to do it(also requires timing and a good set up). In A's she become pissed and shot carelessly at Vita and ends beaten as a result. She uses more tricks and set up on her next fights, the battle against the Book requires her to precisely shooting at it with all she got and the berserk defense program is a humongous cosmic monster so not much strategy is required to shoot that one. StrikerS put the ice on the cake where Nanoha outfights several Gadget Drones Type-II mostly with her aerial combat skills and on the last battle where she prepares her battle plan beforehand, with a S1 old spell no less ...and IT WORKS!, sure the most notorious part of Nanoha's fight style are the BIG LASERS OF DOOM but she's a natural strategist who prepare her battle tactics and set up her spells to adapt to her opponent's battle style and reach efficient results. Fortress Mode so far has only showed on a boring routine of "shield-shoot-shield" she doesn't even maneuvers on the sky as beofre, Hopefully that will change on the next chapters.
P.D.- Is quite a bit jarring to see her also being a pink postlamp on ViVid but to be fair it was part of her plan xD.
She's probably not trying to win at all, otherwise Hayate's team's "unbeatable win streak" in their annual matches would've never happened.
I doubt so, by that point she's still stuck with Raisin Heart and the blaster system, While Hayate's team has Signum an other three Belkan Knights plus two Unison Devices in it(an we all know that Signum alone is more than enough to deal with Pre-FORCE Nanoha xD).
Tetsamaru said: Then StrikerS came in and now everything really did go towards the militrastic setting. I would "Almost" compare it to the Sakura Wars series in its current form.
In my opinion (can't insist enough on it), one of the StrikerS' biggest failures is its poor overall execution. Seriously, it tells you something when its first subbing group dropped it because of the early training episodes. Training episodes are not bad, but they should at least make them interesting. Another failure is its character cast, it had grown too big, too fast; not to mention characters like Griffith who may not even ring a bell to any CASUAL who never have read the side materials. "Did you not know that guy? Shit out of luck! You clearly have not read side story manga #a!!" Most of them are anyway shoved to the side in favor of Nanoha and Fate (which appears to be one of the possible reasons why Vivio is introduced, while I have yet to see WHY Fate is considered as a surrogate mother for Erio and Caro, yes I would have liked some scenes with those three).
Overall, it is in my eyes one of the most wishy washy franchises I have seen, it's like a Super Robot trying to be a Real Robot, or a Real Robot trying to be a Super Robot. It's like, it doesn't know what direction to take and it appears, as more Force and Vivid chapters are published, that the author is just making it up along as he goes.
And the Nanoha universe is far from being as consistent as its most vehement defenders are trying to make it to be. I am occasionally checking the ew material to see if it finally got its shit together and go into something epic. But the way I see it now, it may crumble under its own weight. Which is why I wish for a reboot with clear and consistent rules for the universe like the COST of magic and what it CAN do. Because I believe I am not alone to have wallbanged when they introduced the limiters mechanism and "oh well, reckless magic use CAN KILL YOU!!!" after having watched the lolis shitting out pink beams like it was nothing.
OMG! This guy will kick some serious ass, He snaps Isis neck in one hit, he's able to sneak right behind Nanoha's back(right inside into the Fortress Mode area of protection) nearly killing her, then he keeps up with Fate's lightning speed and he do that without even REACTING! ...i can just wonder how overpowered menacing Deville will become once he finally put his black armor on.