Posted under General
DakuTree said:
As was said earlier in this thread, it doesn't matter how much gets tagged on upload, as long as it gets tagged in the end.
If you openly admit this is not a problem then what exactly is the problem being solved here?
One of the users you snapped at and claimed was "one of the worst users you've seen for this problem" was Ars, who has never done anything different than what you're doing now.
I still have trouble understanding the logic of your solution:
[People camp sites] -> [I'll kill off camping by camping harder with a bot]
This only moves the problem to your side, not solves it, right? It's not like people who were upset by camping will feel better or get their complaints solved by having a bot beating them all at it. The end result is the same, if not worse.
[People tag badly for the sake of uploading first] -> [My bot will tag even worse (we all know how Pixiv tags are) for the sake of uploading even faster]
Doesn't that only gives us more work to do? In what does it solves the tagging problem? In the fact that now you're about the only one who does it? And what prevented you from doing it without uploading with a bot in the first place?
I'm sorry, I simply can't perceive your logic. Please, enlighten us.
I simply think that fighting fire with fire is a bad idea, and will end up being counter-productive.
How about we ban DakuTree for a month and call it a day? Between constant erroneous tags that I've had to contact him twice about (in which he shrugged and blamed it on danbooruup's auto-complete both times, and even used the excuse that he can't possibly check everything due to his sheer number of uploads) and a bot that doesn't so much as solve the not-problem than streamline it, it's clear he has an obsession with first-posting that borders on mental illness.
It's bad enough that we had one rantuyetmai, we don't need a fucking second one.
Updated
jjj14 said:
This is a 180 degree flip flop from your earlier position:
You're just the first one to try to game the system with a bot, instead of calling out problem users in reports, in dmails, or on the forum.
I did call out a user in reports, and they continued doing it.
I brought up the issue on the forums and it got ignored. Several other users in the past have brought up the issue on the forums and got ignored.
Even after bringing up the thread again, it eventually just ended up dying again.
Also:
DakuTree said:
Because people tagging like bots is a great thing.
I was being sarcastic.
Serlo said:
In the meantime, he could've run the bot without it uploading and used it as an image finder, since it's clear he's going to be checking each and every image for a long time whilst he debugs it.
An image finder is kind of another idea entirely, and does nothing to actually prevent this from happening.
Hinacle said:
One of the users you snapped at and claimed was "one of the worst users you've seen for this problem" was Ars, who has never done anything different than what you're doing now.
Already mentioned why, and this applies to nearly everyone doing this:
Yet with your tagging, aswell as every other user I've seen doing this, the tagging on upload seems to be perfect on older posts, or posts that can't exactly be seen instantly by other users (homepages, blogs etc.). Same also seems to apply to recently posted images that I guess are not what could be considered "great".
-
Deelles said:
I'm sorry, I simply can't perceive your logic. Please, enlighten us.I simply think that fighting fire with fire is a bad idea, and will end up being counter-productive.
Fighting fire with fire is a bad idea, but I don't see anyone else with better solution that doesn't involve implementing something (which is unlikely). My goal here is simply to remove the ability for users to minimally tag. It is not something users should be doing, as it is essentially bot-like uploading.
Seeing this consistently happen has pushed me to the point of leaving several times, which honestly shouldn't happen, and I really doubt I'm the only person.
Hillside_Moose said:
How about we just ban DakuTree for a month and call it a day? Between constant erroneous tags that I've had to contact him twice about (in which he shrugs and blames it on danbooruup's auto-complete both times, and even used the excuse that he can't check everything due to his sheer number of uploads).
I do check everything, and it's still very easy to miss a tagging mistake in a list of tags. Even more so on posts with large amount of characters/tags.
Have you even checked any other uploaders posts? Because from what I've seen there is quite a fair amount of people doing this, and not seeing the tag mistake. You can't expect every single tagging mistake to be seen.
This whole issue is something else entirely though, and not one that can be fixed.
DakuTree said:
I did call out a user in reports, and they continued doing it.
I brought up the issue on the forums and it got ignored. Several other users in the past have brought up the issue on the forums and got ignored.
Even after bringing up the thread again, it eventually just ended up dying again.
Yes you did give "a" user a record, a single one. We discussed this earlier in the thread. When I checked their uploads at that point their tagging had definitely improved after you brought it to their attention. I can't imagine what they continued doing that offended you was, but I can't actually check it again because apparently you deleted that record after I posted about it, which is pretty funny honestly.
Regardless, I'm not sure what you expect really. Everyone isn't just going to argue cyclically with you about this forever. Of course discussion in this thread dies when you make no attempt to do anything but reinforce the decision you've already made. Constantly insisting there's a problem that exists and is not being solved does not make it so. If you wanted to actually point out the users you've seen who are supposedly doing something detrimental to the site then I'm sure there's plenty of people who would gladly talk to them about improving their tagging, since you are apparently incapable of doing so.
DakuTree said:
My goal here is simply to remove the ability for users to minimally tag.
I bet your bot is only capable of uploading one picture at a time. Lots of pictures pop up in prominent Pixiv peak hours (when minimal tagging is usually noticeable) and some Pixiv campers might note how the bot works and then take advantages from this.
By using bot, you are actually 'encouraging' the others to do the same thing, or even worse, for 'being first' stuff (silly, yet addictive). You do notice some veteran users who are still staying to their shticks, don't you? Besides, slower campers who actually decent in tagging suffer from this too as your bot is bastard fast in automated image-grabbing.
If 'being first' is not your stuff, why not limiting the bot uploads to stuff 24 hours before (like missed pictures in case) and revisions?
On the bright side, you helped tagging them minimally-tagged posts (your :o abuse is terrible though). How about sharing your tagging methods with the others?
Hinacle said:
When I checked their uploads at that point their tagging had definitely improved after you brought it to their attention. I can't imagine what they continued doing that offended you was, but I can't actually check it again because apparently you deleted that record after I posted about it, which is pretty funny honestly.
That record was deleted since as you said earlier in the thread, they improved. This being said, that was only after they stopped actively uploading though..
dean_exia said:
If 'being first' is not your stuff, why not limiting the bot uploads to stuff 24 hours before (like missed pictures in case) and revisions?
This was an idea I had thought about, and might actually do at some point.
Either way, I'm taking a break from uploading for now. Would still be nice to see something done about this entire issue, but I guess I'm hoping too much.
On the bright side, you helped tagging them minimally-tagged posts (your :o abuse is terrible though). How about sharing your tagging methods with the others?
Methods? Besides abusing danbooruup, aswell as the little feature I added to it there isn't much.
Tagging isn't exactly a difficult thing.
DakuTree said:
I do check everything, and it's still very easy to miss a tagging mistake in a list of tags. Even more so on posts with large amount of characters/tags.
If you do check everything, then it's a quick, cursory glance at best, which makes sense considering there's Pixiv and blog stalking to do.
Have you even checked any other uploaders posts? Because from what I've seen there is quite a fair amount of people doing this, and not seeing the tag mistake. You can't expect every single tagging mistake to be seen.
"Other people do it too, so it's okay if I do it!" Is that what you're trying to say? Quit passing the blame. The reason I'm singling you out is because you're the most prominent uploader, therefore you are the biggest offender, not to mention your constant soapboxing over the non-problem puts a tone of hypocrisy to it all.
I'm serious about that ban suggestion. You have a problem, and it's time for an intervention if you're not going to fix it.
Updated
DakuTree, I'm probably as pissed as you with the waste of manpower going on with pixiv camping, but I agree with the others that no user has the right to force their way onto everyone, and I also agree that a camper bot isn't going to have the effects you hope (unless this is just an act to force discussion).
Earlier you said:
There is over 75K artists on the database with links to unchecked blogs, twitter, etc etc. There is also places that have been checked that have had things overlooked. I know for a fact that all of this hasn't been checked yet. I know both seiga and nijie both have a large amount of stuff that is duplicates, that isn't being said there isn't artists who only upload on this sites.
You're onto something invaluably helpful with these image grabbers tools you've been developping, and I think the right course of action to push uploaders to a change lies there.
You may dislike that no one cared enough to code these before you, and how little feedback you're getting for it (I don't quite know how much advertising you did), but uploaders will eventually start to use them if you keep up.
Now like others already said, surely you understand that your good intentions in this thread would be easier to believe if your own upload stats weren't so absurdly extreme.
While looking at houtengeki a few days ago I saw your name nearly everywhere on the first 2 pages. Both pixiv and nicoseiga images all uploaded within 1-2 minutes from their source, fully tagged or close.
Even if we don't take this as representative of your actual activtiy as an uploader, how does your wish that uploaders would search for content compute with stalking houtengeki, of all people? Aren't you supposed to set an example?
There are two problems being discussed in this thread, really. There's the one with the first mentality where some good suggestions have been put forward to combat, but that is all getting drowned out by the second problem. DakuTree doesn't understand where his authority as a Janitor ends. If he were supposed to be moderating users on as large of a scale as he's trying, he'd be a Moderator. He's done well to generate discussion, but it's almost exclusively hostility towards his Great Solution.
This cyclical argument won't go anywhere, and hasn't, so why not convert the thread into something else? Much like forum #57955, use this thread as a callout grounds to raise awareness on individual offenders, so they can be dealt with accordingly.
If not, I'd like to request a thread lock.
There's been a lot said already that I also agree with, but I will bring in my thoughts before a thread lock.
To start: DakuTree, your planned "Upload Intervention" by basically shutting out others via your own tagging or use of a bot/script is bullshit. Users will look for content when (if) they want to when they feel like it. You are not needed as some catalyst for what you believe needs to be changed, with a plan that looks to be fundamentally wrong to begin with.
I'm really not sure where you get this idea that everyone HAS to do it your way. Even if you're a Janitor with 7 positive records and a high post count, you are still ultimately a user, just like everyone else here. So don't try to wage some personal crusade against chasing posts, something you're clearly guilty of yourself and Blameshift to others anytime you're accused of it.
The only thing your own frequent uploading managed to do was exacerbate this "problem" of people not uploading the way you want them to. So you really haven't solved anything regarding a (grudgingly) accepted standard of 10 or so tags that only you seem to have a major issue with. Then you actually expect people to just conform to your views, based on...nothing. Do you really think independent users here will just submit to that? For all of your experience with coding, it doesn't apply to people.
DakuTree said:
On the other hand, when you notice things like this where the uploader didn't even put the effort into tagging afterwards (which kind of shows it was blatent "first" uploading)
Exactly how much more tagging are you expecting from me on that post when you've already placed the vast majority of tags, at nearly the same time I've uploaded it? And how is it that this one upload you missed out on set you off, considering all of the other posts you've obsessively sat on Pixiv to snatch up in the past months?
Also, I don't care what your reasons are, do not attempt to cite me for any example of a tagging problem again. You don't know what "first" uploading is. I and others had to put up with one-tag nonsense from Snesso, Jue, and Mr GT (in that order), along with the people that followed them years ago. Compared to that, what people do now is tame and not even an actual issue to begin with.
I'm done with this. Lock the thread if you wish.
Updated
Bots are two-sided.
On the positive side, they can grab images that may disappear within minutes (eg uncensored) or could help with getting an artist's portfolio before they disappear.
OTOH, if I see an image has already been uploaded (via IQDB) I personally am less likely to bother updating its tags (I'd hazard I'm around 40% for previously uploaded images); thus contributing to lower tagging standards across the site.
Apollyon said:
Exactly how much more tagging are you expecting from me on that post when you've already placed the vast majority of tags, at nearly the same time I've uploaded it?
I've said that in the past already but what's the point in becoming a Janitor if you keep competing with the uploaders you're now supposed to approve? What message are you sending to below Contributor posters?
Updated
The vast majority of the pseudo-argumentative posts in this thread boil down to "DakuTree's bot can upload faster than me, so I disapprove of it."
What is the point of removing something efficient so other users can somehow "get credit" for manually doing something that can be automated? Is Danbooru supposed to be a repository for high-quality art, or a e-peen competition scoreboard?
Aristocrat said:
Is Danbooru supposed to be a repository for high-quality art, or a e-peen competition scoreboard?
You do realize that the only reason for this thread even to exist is the latter, no?
Is it so odd to think, that if something works "properly" and an alternative proposed for that is something that does the exact same activity either evenly "properly" or "worse", moreover gives a risk for the general functioning to degrade, then it shouldn't be fucking changed?
Updated
Aristocrat said:
The vast majority of the pseudo-argumentative posts in this thread boil down to "DakuTree's bot can upload faster than me, so I disapprove of it."
That efficiency comes at a cost, something that you would have realized if you actually read the thread and put some thought into how the bot works instead of attacking a strawman.
1) Pixiv tags are woefully subpar
The bot supposedly takes tags from Pixiv and translates them to Danbooru, but Pixiv tags are notoriously shitty and even if you remove the chaff you still get about four or five usable tags at best (artist, copyright, character, 1-2 general tags). That's assuming the general tags aren't crap too or too vague to be used with Danbooru's tag hierarchy. DakuTree never adequately addressed this concern, other than, "It'll get better, trust me."
2) Not everything an artist uploads is Danbooru quality
Not everything an artist draws is pure gold, and even the best artists will occasionally post a joke sketch once in a while. Even if you use the bot to track only top-tier artists like Nora Higuma or Alphonse, it doesn't fix the supposedly-widespread first-posting at all because said artists rarely post by nature, and all the mid-tier artists require human eyes to judge for quality anyway.
This bot doesn't so much as solve the first-posting than streamline it, so what is it exactly trying to fix?
DakuTree said:
I've actually had this thing for a few months. Have been hoping you know, uploaders would get better. Apparently not.Uploaders probably won't like this, but honestly it's a good thing.
This pushes people into actually "looking" for content. You make it impossible to watch pixiv, people then have to look. We get more "rare" content as a result.
AH HA HA HA HA. This is hilarious. For the longest time I thought you were botting and now it seems my suspicion was correct. The best part is that you were correct. When I noticed I was being out paced in uploading popular pictures I started digging deeper. So kudos to you, at least in one case your plan worked. There's a downside to this but it's outside the scope of this discussion.
In regard to your bot plan I support it. There are a number of artists that always pump out good works. Having the bot uploading those artists automatically would be awesome. No competition.
I suggest a plan. An admin makes an account. Name is something clever like Danbot. We whitelist the artists that gaurantee good pictures. Then we have anybody who's interested in following danbot around and tagging it's upload do so. We make a sticky on the forums and have suggestions on who to add to the white list. I think we should really give it a shot. Seperate the bot from Daku's account to one open to all mods+ and have the lower levels take care of the gardening and deletion.
Edit
Hillside_Moose said:
1) Tag gardeners can follow the bot to edit the tags
2) We can flag the doodles and sketches for deletion
3) The bot solves the problem of "first" and the epeen thing by removing the issue.
I see this shifting the focus from uploading to gardening and exploring that's a good thing.
Updated
Action_Kamen said:
I suggest a plan. An admin makes an account. Name is something clever like Danbot. We whitelist the artists that gaurantee good pictures.
user #384128 is incompetent in tagging for now. Moreover, it's active as long as Dakutree is, like proxy (and s/he must be responsible).
Then we have anybody who's interested in following danbot around and tagging it's upload do so. We make a sticky on the forums and have suggestions on who to add to the white list.
Having a number of users helping in tagging posts uploaded by a single user? I'm sick of that.
Aristocrat said:
What is the point of removing something efficient so other users can somehow "get credit" for manually doing something that can be automated? Is Danbooru supposed to be a repository for high-quality art, or a e-peen competition scoreboard?
Why need automated system when you have lots of users who are capable and willing to do the exact same thing; uploading and tagging?. As I pointed out before, even the bot is susceptible to inappropriate tagging.
AFAIK, besides encouraging users to dig deeper (but not all users are very dedicated to do so), Dakutree uses bot to 'teach' users not to upload like a bot, but some frequent users still stick to their minimal tagging (notably during Pixiv peak hours when lots of campers stalk Pixiv), thus manage to outspeed the bot. To hell with competition, focus on the repository part. I don't even care as long as the images get tagged by the uploaders themselves in the end.
