Posted under General
Here's a question triggered by post #515263: should miko embrace preempt kannazuki no miko, or should we keep the series tagged? Personally, I'm of opinion that the source copyright should be kept in case of memes of clear and localised origin, and that's very much the case here. But I've heard voices saying otherwise.
Updated by richie
If it's a clear parody, the source should be included. For some memes, this can go both ways. Unlimited Blade Works includes references to specifically Fate/Stay Night's UBW (like those with the distinctive chant or wasteland background) as well as posts that just happen to have a bunch of swords sticking in the ground.
But miko embrace is a distinctive enough pose that there's not much room for coincidence.
Updated
I thought the general consensus in forum #13791 was to keep the source copyright off if the meme has a tag of its own.
IMO it doesn't really matter if it's a meme with it's own tag or not, the level of reference (I can't think of a better way to put this) should determine if the source tag is put into play.
For instance, a Caramelldansen image that is nothing more than a pose (post #462389) should not have both tags but if it replicates the entire scene (post #193041) it should.
Hillside_Moose said:
I thought the general consensus in forum #13791 was to keep the source copyright off if the meme has a tag of its own.
I don't think it was all that general, and I still agree with everything I've said in it. These things need the source tags if they're direct parodies of specific works. Pretty much what Log says, and what's been said in that thread before. Thus gununu, take_it_home and miko_embrace get the tag, caramelldansen and yukkuri_shitteite_ne don't.
I'd also like to revisit one of the arguments raised in the thread, "for someone not familiar with the source, there will be a sudden stream of seemingly unrelated posts". I think this is invalid and the opposite is true: by implicating the original copyright, we give people the opportunity to learn the origins of a given parody. Stripping them means they're left only with a collection of parodies of something, with no way to find out what.
That ties into a related argument: most parodies don't have specific names, at least not during the initial outbreak. Thus the policy as presented by forum #13791 is self-contradicting: we are to tag original copyrights, unless the meme makes it big (how big?), in which case we are suddenly to remove them. That's silly. We've had maybe two tags where that was legitimately the case, takoluka and yukkuris, and that was because they were outside parodies of the copyright that mutated into memes on their own. Ie. both fulfil the indirection requirement mentioned above, and because of that, both had names pretty much from the get-go.
So to sum up: I still disagree with conclusions reached in forum #13791 and think that original copyrights should be implicated by parodies unless specific conditions are met, as decided by a simple indirection test.
葉月 said: Stripping them means they're left only with a collection of parodies of something, with no way to find out what.
No way? That's why we have the wiki.
So to sum up: I still disagree with conclusions reached in forum #13791 and think that original copyrights should be implicated by parodies unless specific conditions are met, as decided by a simple indirection test.
I don't much care which way we go anymore, to be honest, but if we're going to implicate copyrights then making it conditional on a "simple indirection test" just complicates things because it's actually not terribly "simple". Either put on all or none, don't leave it ambiguous.
jxh2154 said:
but if we're going to implicate copyrights then making it conditional on a "simple indirection test" just complicates things because it's actually not terribly "simple".
Howso? I'm honestly not sure what could be complicated in seeing that yukkuri is a second-order parody whilst miko embrace is first-order. Care to explain?
葉月 said: Howso? I'm honestly not sure what could be complicated in seeing that yukkuri is a second-order parody whilst miko embrace is first-order. Care to explain?
Without having the exact same discussion we had last time? It's obvious that miko_embrace is easy to pin down as being connected to KnM, but not so obvious that the others aren't connected. I still particularly disagree with you about carameldansen, which you categorize as second order even though it's the pose from the Popotan OP that drives the meme.
Still, I guess it won't be the end of the world to do the ones that are agreed upon, at least. I would rather we be consistent, but I don't feel like holding them all up for agreement we won't reach. So in short, I'm fine with doing what you proposed, and people can hash out the other ones whenever. So I implicated miko_embrace, to start.
Updated
Sorry for necro, but I'm in bad mood because today, in my subscribed tags, once again I got a meal that I didn't order.
Therefore I'm politely asking to remove miko_embrace->kannazuki_no_miko implication, because keeping it simply does not have any sense. Is it so hard to understand, that memes tend to live their own lives, without any connection to their origin? And wiki notes are more than enough to explain memes' both: connections and origin.
Besides, I can see bunch of memes which somehow are not implicated till today, like
moe_moe_kyun! -> k-on!
unlimited_blade_works -> fate_stay_night
take_it_home -> higurashi_no_naku_koro_ni
loituma -> bleach
caramelldansen -> popotan
and noone is complaining of the lack of them? Howso? So what's the big deal with miko_embrace? Cause as for me it's clear case of double standards.
Updated
richie said: Is it so hard to understand, that memes tend to live their own lives, without any connection to their origin? And wiki notes are more than enough to explain memes' both: connections and origin.
The problem is that there is absolutely positively no agreement on this whatsoever.
Also, you'll have to live with the fact that not every image in a given tag is going to be exactly what you wanted to see. That will never be perfect, especially because different people want different things from any given tag.
Just for record, I've read the previous discussion, and sorry to say but arguments of keeping meme's source tags are... frivolous.
I think this is invalid and the opposite is true: by implicating the original copyright, we give people the opportunity to learn the origins of a given parody.
Not true - because of wiki.
most parodies don't have specific names, at least not during the initial outbreak. Thus the policy as presented by forum #13791 is self-contradicting: we are to tag original copyrights, unless the meme makes it big (how big?)
Unless the meme gets its name, i.e. unless meme becomes meme.
Before then meme does not exist.
And after that moment, what kind of big deal is to do +meme sometimes together with -title (instead of +meme only) while editing the tags?
and think that original copyrights should be implicated by parodies unless specific conditions are met
Sorry, but that's absurd. Are we going to begin serious debate every time new meme arise to analyze, if 5 seconds of dancing Mai and Mii from Popotan is just enough to declare carameldansen tag's independent or dependent one? Seriously, can you even think about it without rolling your eyes at least?
Ah, and I'm perfectly aware that not every image I find will be exactly what I want to see. Except when I was eariler trying to address this problem, I was told that I could at least use -tag when doing search.
Well, in tag subcriptions - I can't.
But that's irrelevant. What is, that the whole problem is left unresolved in half way. No, it's not half way. In fact all is left exactly as I advocate - with only one, small exception. And this exception name is miko_embrace. Therefore I ask to remove it.
Either this, or else implement strict meme->origin tag implications. With every single of them, no exceptions. This would be a solution I personally don't like, but at least I think its logic is understandable and thus acceptable. Any other, third way of resolving this situation is a delusion.
richie said:
Unless the meme gets its name, i.e. unless meme becomes meme. Before then meme does not exist.
And after that moment, what kind of big deal is to do +meme sometimes together with -title (instead of +meme only) while editing the tags?
I disagree with this. Memes are nothing but oft repeated ideas, and ideas almost never have a name initially. Sure, we end up labeling them with something at some point in order to refer to them, but as forum #30364 shows that process in itself is somewhat arbitrary.
richie said:
But that's irrelevant. What is, that the whole problem is left unresolved in half way. No, it's not half way. In fact all is left exactly as I advocate...Either this, or else implement strict meme->origin tag implications. With every single of them, no exceptions...
Any other, third way of resolving this situation is a delusion.
I'll admit that I really don't have any real strong opinions on this matter, but I think your "all or nothing" ultimatum here is unnecessarily limiting. While we do strive for consistency when it makes sense to, flexibility to deal with things appropriately is also important. In this case I think flexibility is the way to go, handling things on a case by case basis.
With caramelldansen for example, the meme is derived from a completely irrelevant motion from the source's OP. There, the source is not really too tightly attached to the meme, and doesn't really warrant implication.
With something like just_as_planned though, almost every instance of the meme is a direct parody of a fairly important scene from the source's story. There, it makes more sense to make sure the source is tagged in addition to whatever is invoking the meme.
The "all or nothing" solution would force us to ignore relevance, and lump every meme into the same category. This probably isn't the most ideal solution.
Shinjidude said:
I disagree with this. Memes are nothing but oft repeated ideas, and ideas almost never have a name initially. Sure, we end up labeling them with something at some point in order to refer to them, but as forum #30364 shows that process in itself is somewhat arbitrary.
But that's exactly my point. Unnamed memes - for Danbooru - do not exist. Because you can't tag unnamed meme.
BTW, thanks for another example of meme left without implication to its origin. So why they're_not_panties tag is not implicating strike_witches, even if it's a "booster line" of it (quoted from wiki)?
With caramelldansen for example, the meme is derived from a completely irrelevant motion from the source's OP.
How irrelevant?
Two main heroines of Popotan are dancing like that in opening.
Two main heroines of Kannazuki are embracing like that in ending.
???
You see, we can argue endlessly like that with every single meme we have here. So long as finally all participants of this discussion will drop dead, and say "sorry, I can no longer, I don't give a s*it anymore", but it still wouldn't mean we have achieved any conclusion.
Sometimes using Ockham's razor is the best option, really.
The "all or nothing" solution would force us to ignore relevance, and lump every meme into the same category. This probably isn't the most ideal solution.
Except now it's "miko_embrace and nothing". All new memes (and old ones too) are left on their own without any forced implications. This is a status quo. And only miko_embrace remains still implicated, as part of irreasonable, unjustified concession. That's why I insist to remove it.
I actually wasn't weighing in on this specific example, nor defending the specific status quo (where most memes except the one you don't want to be are unimplicated). I was more countering a couple of your points.
I'm also not familiar with Kannazuki. If it's a very iconic scene (see ga_rune_pose for an example), then I agree with Hazuki and the others above. In that case, yes it should be implicated. If it's merely an incidental 2 second transitory clip, as it is with caramelldansen and Popotan, then I agree with you and would think an implication was unwarranted.
As for the global situation, I think there probably are some other memes that could stand to have their own implications, if that's not the case. We should be pretty sure that that is warranted for every instance of that tag when we set them though. If it's not, leaving the implication off, and letting people tag the source as appropriate after the fact is a preferable solution.
I don't understand the necessity for implication with memes, since everything about a particular meme origins can be written in its wiki (the miko embrace wiki with the example post is already exactly all you need).
Besides, the extra copyright tag you get for this when it has little to no relation with possibly the entire rest of the image is something I feel uneasy with.
In total opposite, I hate when posts get a single parody tag with no further element at all. And that's the place where you'd expect to have extra tags telling you what the parody is about.
Cyberia-Mix said:
I don't understand the necessity for implication with memes, since everything about a particular meme origins can be written in its wiki (the miko embrace wiki with the example post is already exactly all you need).
In total opposite, I hate when posts get a single parody tag with no further element at all. And that's the place where you'd expect to have extra tags telling you what the parody is about.
This is the problem.
Before a parody graduates to become a meme with its own tag, there is no way to indicate what is being parodied without tagging the other copyright.
When it does graduate to getting its own meme tag, not having changed at all along the way other than in prevalence, do you just suddenly stop adding the copyright tag? Do you go back and retroactively delete it from earlier instances?
And who decides it's prevalent enough? This stuff just kinda "happens". It's the nature of memes.
So I want consistency but there's no easy way to get it. So you get stuck with these necessarily arbitrary decisions about whether a tag is "iconic" enough, or "direct" enough and clearly we don't all agree about when this is the case.
(where most memes except the one you don't want to be are unimplicated)
Let's make something clear here - I want all memes to be unimplicated. And because for some, unspecified reason, only miko_embrace is implicated then yes, I want to unimplicate it, absolutely.
very iconic scene (see ga_rune_pose for an example)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElEAJJNTGAM
merely an incidental 2 second transitory clip, as it is with caramelldansen and Popotan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmUkWGsetLI
And now I'm awaiting explanation how this "very iconic scene" is different of the "merely an incidental 2 second transitory clip".
Because, as for me, I could replace this "very iconic" with "merely incidental" adjectives and both your statements would be as valid as they were before.
And I don't even want to point out that very iconic ga_rune_pose is still left unimplicated. While miko_embrace isn't. Probably because it's absurdly iconic *smirk*
When it does graduate to getting its own meme tag, not having changed at all along the way other than in prevalence, do you just suddenly stop adding the copyright tag?
Yes
Do you go back and retroactively delete it from earlier instances?
Why, yes of course.
It seems obvious that we'll go back, and retroactively add new meme tag, no?
Then why we shouldn't delete copyright tags[*] along with this process?
[*] of course deleting with exception when meme is used within its original work, for example
take_it_home in Higurashi world -> Higurashi tag should be left
ga_rune_pose with Galaxy Angel characters -> Galaxy_Angel tag is left
etc.
And who decides it's prevalent enough? This stuff just kinda "happens". It's the nature of memes.
I said it before. When meme gets its name, then this is the time. And there shouldn't be bigger problems with that, as forum #30364 shows.
On the other hand, it should come natural to tag pretty much all of such memes with parody + (insert_seriesname_here).
*headdesk*
Could you explain me, why should we add all this redundant information? Because meme tag means exactly this: parody + (insert_seriesname_here). And from watching how meme tags are gardened now, it seems more natural to ommit this redundant information.
jxh2154 said:
Before a parody graduates to become a meme with its own tag, there is no way to indicate what is being parodied without tagging the other copyright.When it does graduate to getting its own meme tag, not having changed at all along the way other than in prevalence, do you just suddenly stop adding the copyright tag? Do you go back and retroactively delete it from earlier instances?
It's not that much a problem the way I see it actually.
meme tag + wiki or parody tag + copyright both mean about the same thing, so it's still fine even if some posts fail to follow the policy.
I'm bitching about the parody tag + nothing situation where the tagger neither added the series tag nor left a comment, and this has nothing to do with the policy here, but just the tagger doing half of the work.
Updated
