Danbooru

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Topic: The Great Fate Character Retagging Project

Posted under Tags

WakuWaku

Blossop said:

Let's say a visitor comes to Danbooru searching for pics of Saber, and discovers her real name is Artoria Pendragon. What is their reaction, and what happens to our website?

Let's say a different visitor makes an account to upload pics of various Fate characters, and runs into a spaghetti mess of Fate tags. What is their reaction, and what happens to our website?

I would bet the second person is much more likely to quit Danbooru or harbor negative feelings or cause trouble on our website than the first person is.

The catchall + variant tagging system makes at least as much sense as the way we've tagged fate characters for years. Has people getting angry and causing trouble over Fate tags been a problem before?

Updated by WakuWaku

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  • mj1234

    What do admins feel about tags for each different form of a "character"?

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  • ckretaznman

    So, just a random thing to prove the point about how confusing this class name-only tagging system is, Robin Hood's tag is archer (fate/extra) but post #2890999 and post #2891041 seems to be confused over what that tag is used for. Mind you, this happened three days ago; people are still making mistakes over this convoluted, archaic tagging system. This needs to change.

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  • mj1234

    I mean really, "gorgon" was added to "rider" who is Medusa.. And now it's automatically implicated with "rider". This lazy way of tagging Fate characters must stop before we get another Saber dilemma.

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  • WhiteCrow

    I'm not sure if this should be an alias request instead, but now that the Shimosa chapter's been released in FGO, should "limited/zero_over" be renamed or otherwise aliased to "senji_muramasa" or something?
    Also, on spoiler concerns regarding change of old tags, I think it's much less of a problem than the "spaghetti tags" now that Grand Order's been out for over two years: everyone's called by their real name there. And Apocrypha anime too, they just reveal their true names right off the bat.

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  • KyteM

    WhiteCrow said:

    I'm not sure if this should be an alias request instead, but now that the Shimosa chapter's been released in FGO, should "limited/zero_over" be renamed or otherwise aliased to "senji_muramasa" or something?
    Also, on spoiler concerns regarding change of old tags, I think it's much less of a problem than the "spaghetti tags" now that Grand Order's been out for over two years: everyone's called by their real name there. And Apocrypha anime too, they just reveal their true names right off the bat.

    If the spoiler policy sticks, then logically we'd have to change all the EoR servants, so Moriarty will become Archer of Shinjuku, Chiyome will become Assassin Paradiso, etc.

    Then we'll see how many people remember the stupid code names.

    As for the other topic, that's pretty tricky. So far, LZO's appearance has been used to refer to LZO-as-Shirou, especially in things like manga or Emiya family pics. Muramasa may be visually the same, but he's still a different personality. They'd be, like, dunno, twins?

    I'm impressed Nasu and co. manage to find ever new ways to make tagging even more complicated.

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  • sakuraka ama

    Honestly, though some arguments remain as "spoiler is still spoiler regardless of time", using (Star Wars spoiler) Darth Vader is Luke's father) as example, at this point everyone who is not even into Star Wars (or at the topic, Fate series) are already spoiled, with the franchise being over a decade old. And a lot of people actually play FGO first before getting into the original series, so they all already know who's who.

    KyteM said:
    If the spoiler policy sticks, then logically we'd have to change all the EoR servants, so Moriarty will become Archer of Shinjuku, Chiyome will become Assassin Paradiso, etc.

    Exactly this. One argument says that "spoilers have no expiration date", and yet the servants from EoR chapter got revealed blatantly in this site, with their code name immediately aliased to true name.

    Now that the survey has been taken off from the header, does it actually answer something or should this tagging system stay convoluted as it is now?

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  • sarusa

    I noticed this specific example because F/GO is running a Halloween event that heavily features Berserker Tamamo Cat. I see @KyteM covered this about 4 months ago, but wanted to be specific on this, especially since anyone coming here looking for pics (that fabulous new user that keeps coming up in this thread who can be traumatized by a single tag) because of the event is going to find our tags are just wrong.

    We're tagging all the Berserker tamamo_cat_(fate/grand_order) with caster_(fate/extra), which is incorrect - story-wise, Berserker Tamamo Cat is one of original Tamamo's cut off tails, but is now an independent heroic spirit. As seen here: URL:http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Berserker_(Fate/Grand_Order_-_Tamamo) if she's got the red outfit, pawgloves, big bell, more hair and earfur and thicker build it's Tamamo Cat (Berserker) and the thin build, blue outfit, thin b/w choker is Tamamo-No-Mae (Caster). The bell and pawgloves are the big thing in case of nekkid or alternate outfits.

    To further complicate things we've got tamamo_no_mae_(swimsuit_lancer)_(fate) which is still tagged caster too - but that's more reasonable since it's just the same character in a swimsuit.

    post #2853448 is Berserker, post #2889002 is Caster, and post #2899322 is Lancer. Fixing this one has no spoiler implications at least.

    Updated by sarusa

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  • mj1234

    It'd be much easier if we removed the implications and used separate characters tags.

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  • WatcherCCG

    sarusa said:

    To further complicate things we've got tamamo_no_mae_(swimsuit_lancer)_(fate) which is still tagged caster too - but that's more reasonable since it's just the same character in a swimsuit.

    There are some lines during the summer events (can't quote them but I know I've seen them) that imply that Lancer Tamamo is also one of those severed tails, as she later decides to call herself "Tamamo Shark" and become part of the Tamamo Nine. This is yet another example of how the class-based naming is a snarl of insanity that FGO has completely destroyed, and was seemingly intended to destroy.

    Also, "spoilers are forever" is not a valid policy due to the "It Was His Sled" effect, as denoted on TV Tropes. Fate Stay/Night has been out for years at this point, and with Grand Order handing us everyone's true names (even EMIYA's) on a platter, spoilers are guaranteed. The policy does not work, not for an image site where the majority of people who use the tag search probably already know who they're looking for and don't care about spoilers.

    In fact, by the "spoilers are forever" logic, we should be tagging Touhou's Extra Stage bosses as spoilers, possibly even all bosses not featured in the demos (which is everyone past stage 3) and bosses for the fighting games, since their demos don't normally reveal them. Given Touhou is one of our big breadwinners here and almost everyone knows who most of the big-name characters are (even non-fans), that doesn't make sense, and it shouldn't. The policy for Fate is outdated, and we should change with the times, as Grand Order is subtly encouraging us to do.

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  • mj1234

    bump.. too important to ignore. What are the admin/mods opinion? Will we get separate tags for each form?

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  • ckretaznman

    Considering majority opinion, multiple advantages of true names, and the lack of good arguments supporting the old system, the site should go with true names.

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  • albert

    I think the best thing to do is for people to individually suggest changes as separate topics. There's no need to do everything in one large batch.

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  • mj1234

    woho nice :) any plans for other characters in the franchise too? Jeanne and Rin could need some love

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  • ckretaznman

    OK, then. Let's begin:

    saber --> artoria pendragon or artoria pendragon (fate/stay night) or artoria pendragon (fate)
    saber alter --> artoria pendragon alter or artoria pendragon alter (fate)
    saber lily --> artoria pendragon lily or artoria pendragon lily (fate)
    archer --> emiya or emiya (fate/stay night) or emiya (fate)
    lancer --> cu chulainn (fate/stay night)
    rider --> medusa (fate/stay night) or medusa (fate)
    caster --> medea (fate/stay night) or medea (fate)
    assassin --> sasaki koujirou (fate/stay night) or sasaki koujirou (fate)
    true assassin --> cursed arm hassan or cursed arm hassan (fate/stay night) or cursed arm hassan (fate)
    berserker --> heracles (fate/stay night) or hercules (fate/stay night) or heracles (fate) or hercules (fate)
    lancer (fate/zero) --> diarmuid ua duibhne (fate/zero) or diarmuid ua duibhne (fate)
    rider (fate/zero) --> iskandar (fate/zero)
    caster (fate/zero) --> gilles de rais (fate/zero)
    assassin (fate/zero) --> hundred-faced hassan or hundred-faced hassan (fate/zero) or hundred-faced hassan (fate)
    berserker (fate/zero) --> lancelot (fate/zero)
    avenger --> angra mainyu (fate/hollow ataraxia) or angra mainyu (fate)
    saber extra --> nero claudius (fate/extra)
    archer (fate/extra) --> robin hood (fate/extra) or robin hood (fate)
    lancer (fate/extra) --> vlad iii (fate/extra) or vlad the impaler (fate/extra)
    rider (fate/extra) --> francis drake (fate/extra) or francis drake (fate)
    berserker (fate/extra) --> lu bu (fate/extra) or lu bu fengxian (fate/extra) or lu bu (fate) or lu bu fengxian (fate)
    caster (fate/extra) --> tamamo no mae (fate/extra) or tamamo no mae (fate)
    assassin (fate/extra) --> li shuwen (fate/extra)
    saber bride --> nero claudius bride or nero claudius bride (fate)
    caster (fate/extra ccc) --> hans christian andersen (fate/extra ccc) or hans christian andersen (fate)
    lancer (fate/extra ccc) --> elizabeth bathory (fate/extra ccc) or elizabeth bathory (fate)
    saber (fate/extra ccc fox tail) --> suzuka gozen (fate/extra ccc fox tail) or suzuka gozen (fate)
    saber (fate/prototype) --> arthur pendragon (fate/prototype) or arthur pendragon (fate)
    archer (fate/prototype) --> gilgamesh (fate/prototype)
    lancer (fate/prototype) --> cu chulainn (fate/prototype)
    rider (fate/prototype) --> perseus (fate/prototype) or perseus (fate)
    archer (fate/prototype fragments) --> arash (fate/prototype) or arash (fate)
    lancer (fate/prototype fragments) --> brynhildr (fate/prototype fragments) or brynhildr (fate)
    rider (fate/prototype fragments) --> ozymandias (fate/prototype fragments) or ozymandias (fate)
    caster (fate/prototype fragments) --> paracelsus (fate/prototype fragments) or paracelsus (fate)
    assassin (fate/prototype fragments) --> hassan of serenity or hassan of serenity (fate/prototype fragments) or hassan of serenity (fate)
    berserker (fate/prototype fragments) --> jekyll and hyde (fate)
    saber lion --> artoria pendragon lion or artoria pendragon lion (fate)
    saber of black --> siegfried (fate/apocrypha) or siegfried (fate)
    archer of black --> chiron (fate/apocrypha) or chiron (fate)
    lancer of black --> vlad iii (fate/apocrypha) or vlad the impaler (fate/apocrypha)
    rider of black --> astolfo (fate/apocrypha) or astolfo (fate)
    caster of black --> avicebron (fate/apocrypha) or avicebron (fate)
    assassin of black --> jack the ripper (fate/apocrypha) or jack the ripper (fate)
    berserker of black --> frankenstein's monster (fate/apocrypha) or frankenstein's monster (fate)
    saber of red --> mordred (fate/apocrypha) or mordred (fate)
    archer of red --> atalanta (fate/apocrypha) or atalanta (fate)
    rider of red --> achilles (fate/apocrypha) or achilles (fate)
    caster of red --> william shakespeare (fate/apocrypha) or william shakespeare (fate)
    assassin of red --> semiramis (fate/apocrypha) or semiramis (fate)
    berserker of red --> spartacus (fate/apocrypha) or spartacus (fate)
    ruler (fate/apocrypha) --> jeanne d'arc (fate/apocrypha) or jeanne d'arc (fate)
    kotomine shirou --> amakusa shirou (fate/apocrypha) or amakusa shirou (fate)

    I noticed that a few tags in the system have _(fate) at the end of the name to imply that the character comes from that franchise, and I kind of understand that. These are historical/mythological characters that exist beyond the nasuverse lore, so tagging them as specifically a part of the nasuverse is a pretty good idea. I'm not very sure about the idea of referencing which fate (series) work they originate from, because I think that would cause confusion due to fate/grand order not directly stating their origins in-game. Karna is tagged as karna (fate) and not karna (fate/apocrypha) or karna (fate/extra ccc) while Gilgamesh is tagged as just gilgamesh and not gilgamesh (fate). However, there are some clones such as Cu Chulainn and I would recommend keeping originating works on those particular tags. Names such as Artoria Pendragon, Nero Claudius Bride, and Hassan of Serenity are so unique that I wouldn't worry about putting a _(fate) at the end, but that does screw with the consistency. So keep that in mind.

    Updated by ckretaznman

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  • G-SANtos

    Artoria Pendragon is not a public domain name, unlike Arthur Pendragon, so she doesn't need _(fate) at the end. Everyone else needs, I think. I'll address anything else tomorrow, if I find anything to address.

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