Danbooru

Improving moderation process

Posted under Bugs & Features

feline_lump said:

A number of users have been making complaints about the lack of moderator activity recently. The average number of mods reviewing a picture has dropped further from 4-6, as reported just a month ago, to only 2 or 3, and this has resulted in an upswing of (also largely ignored) appeals from posters who don't feel this rate is thorough enough. In addition, promotions seem to have stagnated recently, bringing in less new blood to fill in the gaps left by inactive moderators. Are these sentiments founded, and if so, what should we do?

I know I'm perpetuating that feeling because I use a long-string tag search to moderate by instead of the modqueue. Even though I go through the thumbnails of most non-comic posts each day it doesn't count my look-through in the numbers at the top of the posts because I'm not clicking the links on each post. I only check appeals and use the modqueue to check flagged posts every few days.

I suppose it'd be nice to be able to customize the modqueue by tags but I'm not sure how feasible it would be code-wise; recently I saw custom CSS for highlighting manga samples, so perhaps it could be tag filtered through CSS. My current "moderating search" is based on my preferences:
status:pending -comic -doujinshi -screencap -duplicate -official_art -pixiv_manga_sample

Updated

If the disapproval message on posts that don't make it through the queue doesn't reflect the number of approvers that reviewed a post, perhaps that (apparently inaccurate) information ought to be hidden again. It seems like half the appeals in topic #8554 these days cite lack of moderation as an excuse for mediocre art not being approved.

The Mod Queue always loads slowly on my end and it's tedious having to scroll though several pages worth of posts. After Albert removed the Hide All button I stopped using it altogether.

Adding to this, picking the "poor quality" option seems to have the opposite effect. Rather than use it as a learning opportunity, people opt to act butthurt in the comments section instead.

Hillside_Moose said:

The Mod Queue always loads slowly on my end and it's tedious having to scroll though several pages worth of posts. After Albert removed the Hide All button I stopped using it altogether.

Then maybe Albert should reimplement it again?

Hillside_Moose said:

Adding to this, picking the "poor quality" option seems to have the opposite effect. Rather than use it as a learning opportunity, people opt to act butthurt in the comments section instead.

Then they should suck it up and learn.

tapnek said:

Then maybe Albert should reimplement it again?

If he were to implement it again, he could simply label every post with "No Interest." If it's not good enough to approve, or face-meltingly awful to hit "Poor Quality," then by definition I'm not interested.

iridescent_slime said:

If the disapproval message on posts that don't make it through the queue doesn't reflect the number of approvers that reviewed a post, perhaps that (apparently inaccurate) information ought to be hidden again. It seems like half the appeals in topic #8554 these days cite lack of moderation as an excuse for mediocre art not being approved

Personally, as the person who brought up the presets, I'd suggest that maybe removing the "didn't like it enough to approve" preset would provide more useful feedback. It's one thing to have the rejection message actually say "poor quality", but when it only says "two/three persons didn't like it enough to approve", it only feeds more posts into the appeals queue. That, or more specific presets than the generic "didn't like it enough to approve" one.

It doesn't tell me enough about why an upload got rejected (so I can learn what not to upload) versus "bad art" or "lower quality version of already posted art", or similar.

EDIT: Another idea is to hide the total number of moderators who reviewed it count (as that may not be accurate) and just show the number if specific rejection presets. So you're getting a rejection message that says "Unapproved in three days. 3 marked it as poor quality. 2 indicated it was Not Interesting"

Updated

Long body of text follows. TLDR version; I don't think approver comments or more eyes on posts are really much of a solution. Instead, I think having an environment where getting your upload deleted, or approving an average/subpar post as approver, is less of a big deal would approach things from a different angle. Hopefully help uploaders feel less stressed by deletions and uploaders less stressed about taking a chance in approving a borderline post they like.

Show

The big thing with approvals and appeals is what I call the C/C- effect; Imagine if every post had a letter grade rather than a score or such. Andsay the standard for Danbooru was to only accept posts with C grades or better. So far so good.

But letter grades for tests are usually based on hard numbers; You get a certain percentage of questions right, you get a certain grade. With post quality, as has been stated many times, quality is subjective. Now we can assume that most people can agree on a general range of where a post might be graded, plus or minus a grade; If someone thinks a post is an A, then likely most others will at least have the post as a B or better on their own scale. This means a B or A will get approved nearly 100% of the time, as even the most critical person will think they fit within standards. B-'s or below face a dilema though; The natural range of opinion means some people will think they're not approval worthy while others will. And this divide just grows greater as one goes down to C+ then C.

Here's the thing; Few people want to approve something someone else might see as a C- or worse though, no matter what they personally might grade a post. Anyone who's been here long enough knows how critical people can be of people approving subpar posts. This is exasperated by approver promotion and grading being dependant on how few subpar posts they like/upload/approve.

So what happens? Obviously, almost no one wants to approve posts with a B- grade or below, whether they think they might be good enough to approve or not. And things on the C side of the C/C- divide? Finding domeone brave enough to approve those gets really tough. Especially since thete is every chance you're actually "wrong" about it and it's "actually" a C- to most people.

Ultimately, the whole system simply rewards this; Those who approve fewer posts. with higher scores, while stay away from borderline cases are safer in their position, safer from criticism, and scored higher in any metrics or reviews.

This all comes back to feedback in the moderation process. Giving a reason to think of something as a C- rather than a C is really fiddly, and just as much personal opinion as a codifiable reason; And it's such a grey area that agreeing on the reasoning will be tough regardless, unless you're pointing out glaring reasons why something should be a D or an F. Plus, with the system as it is, just as often I'd imagine there is actually little reasoning beyond the simple fact that taking a chance on too many borderline cases just isn't good practice, with the way things are.

I can't imagine there are any easy solutions of course.

My personal opinion; Rewarding people who are brave enough to approve or upload C's would be nice; The current enironment of "Err on the side of caution" (to quote the upload guide) just incentivises people to not approve or upload C's in the future... and then the bar is simply unofficially moved to C+'s and that becomes the new borderline that people are afraid to upload or approve. And really, anyone would be willing to upload or approve an A quality post, so someone doing so shouldn't really be seen as much of a stretch or an accomplishment.

That said, I understand that no one is excited to see C quality posts, to see images just good enough to be approved. And one can't just actively reward or encourage the posting and approval of C quality, because even if the line is fuzzy there's obviously a line between those C's and C-'s there somewhere. And Danbooru is Danbooru, in part, because it has higher standards than the Gelboorus and Rule34s of the world. But then, Danbooru wouldn't be Danbooru if it was all A's either.

Regardless, I certainly don't think a lack of moderator views or a lack of given reasoning are the root of so many peoples' troubles, going to appeals multiple times and getting frustrated. A fuzzy spectrum system (good to bad) with a binary result (approve or disapprove) will always have that. I simply think an environment where deleted posts aren't as much of a stigma (both in the minds of mods and those participating in the upload/approval process) would be a nice way to approach the issue from a different angle.

Saduharta said:
Here's the thing; Few people want to approve something someone else might see as a C- or worse though, no matter what they personally might grade a post.

I'm noticing the opposite with D+ and C- posts getting approved more often than they should.

I'll just say this: Danbooru is suppose to be a high quality art repository. Would you call a C of any kind "high quality"? I know I can't remember anytime were someone was excited about showing their parents a C score on their school work.

Hillside_Moose said:

The Mod Queue always loads slowly on my end and it's tedious having to scroll though several pages worth of posts. After Albert removed the Hide All button I stopped using it altogether.

I had made some suggestions before on what could be done to improve the Mod Queue's usability in forum #105514. The basic idea I had was to make it like the Posts page, but with more functionality.

But as it is, I'm also using the Posts page to find posts to approve now.

iridescent_slime said:

If the disapproval message on posts that don't make it through the queue doesn't reflect the number of approvers that reviewed a post, perhaps that (apparently inaccurate) information ought to be hidden again. It seems like half the appeals in topic #8554 these days cite lack of moderation as an excuse for mediocre art not being approved.

Could also be people not looking to bother to click "Not Interested" for whatever reasons (not using the Mod Queue at all or posts likely getting approved regardless of number of disapprovals).

tapnek said:

Then they should suck it up and learn.

Now if it was that easy with people here, none of this would have gotten up to this point.

Hoobajoob said:

I'm noticing the opposite with D+ and C- posts getting approved more often than they should.

I'll just say this: Danbooru is suppose to be a high quality art repository. Would you call a C of any kind "high quality"? I know I can't remember anytime were someone was excited about showing their parents a C score on their school work.

Yeah, I don't get that image of Danbooru at all; Only less than 10% of approved images have ever been "high quality art". Which is good because the site would be so much smaller and more boring if it only included that stuff; It would be a much worse resource for finding artwork of certain characters or compositions or series. And I certainly don't think everyone is supposed to be "excited" about all the art here; Some of it is just supposed to be good or fair or decent art that might just be the image someone is looking for for whatever reason.

Certainly Danbooru can include all of that without being low quality, and still a good cut above Gelbooru or Sankaku, and a huge cut above a general archive like Pixiv or DeviantArt. Actual low quality art making it through though would be a problem and should be flagged.

Anyways, all that said, maybe I'm wrong and the actual intent was to include the best stuff out there only. I don't think it's been really close to that at all though to this point.

Apollyon said:

I had made some suggestions before on what could be done to improve the Mod Queue's usability in forum #105514. The basic idea I had was to make it like the Posts page, but with more functionality.

I moderate while browsing the new Posts, and there are a lot of pictures I skip from the thumbnail so they end up getting passed without adding to the review count. Something like this idea would be great, but I'm guessing it'd be a big project to implement.

zigzag said:

I moderate while browsing the new Posts, and there are a lot of pictures I skip from the thumbnail so they end up getting passed without adding to the review count. Something like this idea would be great, but I'm guessing it'd be a big project to implement.

Hm, hmm, I highly criticise this way of moderating since thumbnails show much less then the image really has to offer and that can be a lot. Especially if you going to mass tag images and want to be fest, the edit function and working on the thumbnail is pretty conveient but it is less precise. I imagine the same thing for moderating and approving because often one can't really see what's going on on a thumbnail (and if the "d" shortcut would work, one could easily navigate through posts).

Provence said:

Hm, hmm, I highly criticise this way of moderating since thumbnails show much less then the image really has to offer and that can be a lot. Especially if you going to mass tag images and want to be fest, the edit function and working on the thumbnail is pretty conveient but it is less precise. I imagine the same thing for moderating and approving because often one can't really see what's going on on a thumbnail (and if the "d" shortcut would work, one could easily navigate through posts).

It's actually surprisingly simple for a discerning approver to see "fatal flaws" from the thumbnail. For instance, here's a snapshot of a couple rows of my above "moderation tag search." Starting numbering from the top left and moving horizontally...

Show

Before this list starts, I have to emphasize this is my routine and my set of standards. This doesn't match with every other approver on the site and it isn't supposed to. Diverse approvers are what makes sure we get a decent collection, or else Albert would be the only approver.

1. Warrants a look, but that hand between her legs doesn't look right. Was correct; messy lineart.
2. No look: pet peeve; sphere boobs.
3. Warrants a look, but seems to be lacking detail. Approved.
4. Warrants a look. Face is distorted.
5. Warrants a look; approved.
6. No look; can tell her head isn't shaped right.
7. No look; very generic image.
8. Warrants a look. Has anatomy I don't like; huge cameltoe on a small framed girl, feels like breasts are too far apart.
9. Simple comic shouldn't be included in this search; use tag script to tag it and usually refresh the page.
10. As much as I love Sayori, I know there's already a decently-sized version of this image without whatever that is on the bottom. As this is a child and not a parent, I expect it isn't higher quality.
11. Lacking detail.
12&13. Not a fan of the toddler-shaped loli style.
14: Can tell the foreshortening has messed up and that leg is far too long compared to the other.
15: Warrants a look; low resolution.
16: Simple image of a character I don't immediately recognize. Borderline, though.
17: Warrants a look but may be a bad photoshop. Upon opening, lacks detail everywhere except the hair. Was approved by someone else as I typed this.
18: Face looks too simple in a style I don't like; lacking detail.
19: As much as I personally adore this artist's works with Yuudachi and Shigure, I don't approve them as they're almost like schoolchild crayon drawings. They have been improving though.
20: Simple image, face looks to be out of proportion.

That comes out to 7 images opened for a closer look and two approved. I ended up forgetting to click the buttons on them because I was thinking of what to type here, but that's only 5 images out of 18 that I'd have been "counted" on, and to be honest there usually aren't even that many.

OOZ662 said:

It's actually surprisingly simple for a discerning approver to see "fatal flaws" from the thumbnail. For instance, here's a snapshot of a couple rows of my above "moderation tag search." Starting numbering from the top left and moving horizontally...

Show

Before this list starts, I have to emphasize this is my routine and my set of standards. This doesn't match with every other approver on the site and it isn't supposed to. Diverse approvers are what makes sure we get a decent collection, or else Albert would be the only approver.

1. Warrants a look, but that hand between her legs doesn't look right. Was correct; messy lineart.
2. No look: pet peeve; sphere boobs.
3. Warrants a look, but seems to be lacking detail. Approved.
4. Warrants a look. Face is distorted.
5. Warrants a look; approved.
6. No look; can tell her head isn't shaped right.
7. No look; very generic image.
8. Warrants a look. Has anatomy I don't like; huge cameltoe on a small framed girl, feels like breasts are too far apart.
9. Simple comic shouldn't be included in this search; use tag script to tag it and usually refresh the page.
10. As much as I love Sayori, I know there's already a decently-sized version of this image without whatever that is on the bottom. As this is a child and not a parent, I expect it isn't higher quality.
11. Lacking detail.
12&13. Not a fan of the toddler-shaped loli style.
14: Can tell the foreshortening has messed up and that leg is far too long compared to the other.
15: Warrants a look; low resolution.
16: Simple image of a character I don't immediately recognize. Borderline, though.
17: Warrants a look but may be a bad photoshop. Upon opening, lacks detail everywhere except the hair. Was approved by someone else as I typed this.
18: Face looks too simple in a style I don't like; lacking detail.
19: As much as I personally adore this artist's works with Yuudachi and Shigure, I don't approve them as they're almost like schoolchild crayon drawings. They have been improving though.
20: Simple image, face looks to be out of proportion.

That comes out to 7 images opened for a closer look and two approved. I ended up forgetting to click the buttons on them because I was thinking of what to type here, but that's only 5 images out of 18 that I'd have been "counted" on, and to be honest there usually aren't even that many.

Huh? This looks much bigger and more detailed then in my browser :c. Yeah, with these settings, it shouldn't be much of a problem to judge images. And if I going to enlarge the hole site, it gets all blurry and tagging need much more precisement so this comparison isn't that good but it's the closest one.
But as you can see...7 pics out of 20 (or 5 out of 18) in this case warrant a closer look and that's a lot in my eyes for one approver. Maybe I misunderstood zigzag on this one and he does the same thing and with this moderation from you I can live happy. Seems pretty logical.

I've got a question about the mod queue and flagged posts: What is, if an old post gets flagged and it gets to the mod queue. So now, the mods who don't use it, don't they gain awareness of this flagged posts and only the mod who use this can see them? If yes and they don't gain awareness: What is a good reason to not do so?
And another one: If the flagged post was approved before by an approver but gets flagged later on: Can the same approver again approve this post? If yes, the flagging option doesn't make much sense (for example post #1622358. Was Not One Of Us able to approve this again?)
And another thing since I know this: Why don't get the uploader a message if an image gets flagged and to defend this picture by making an appeal or writing a comment below?

Provence said:

I've got a question about the mod queue and flagged posts: What is, if an old post gets flagged and it gets to the mod queue. So now, the mods who don't use it, don't they gain awareness of this flagged posts and only the mod who use this can see them? If yes and they don't gain awareness: What is a good reason to not do so?
And another one: If the flagged post was approved before by an approver but gets flagged later on: Can the same approver again approve this post? If yes, the flagging option doesn't make much sense (for example post #1622358. Was Not One Of Us able to approve this again?)
And another thing since I know this: Why don't get the uploader a message if an image gets flagged and to defend this picture by making an appeal or writing a comment below?

Flagged posts show up with a red border everywhere they exist on the site, so if one were to be new enough to show up in the Posts list or found in the Comments section then they'd see it, but if it were old, flagged and basically "left alone" by other users then approvers not using the mod queue at all would never see it; my little search up there won't see them beause it starts "status:pending" instead of "~status:pending ~status:flagged" so I'll look into changing that if the search limit lets me (though I do check the modqueue for flagged images). I've actually "exploited" this in the past in order to flag images without starting a fight over it; waiting until it's a few days old to flag so that only the approvers will see it in the modqueue and "regular" users won't start flinging crap in the comments section as they tend to do whenever they see a red border on something that wasn't drawn by a preschooler.

I've been told by the code-y people that approvers can't approve an image twice in a row. But, for instance, if I approved that image then it got flagged again, then Not One of Us could approve it again.

Appeals are technically only supposed to be used on already deleted posts. All appealing does is write a comment at the top of the image instead of the bottom and make it show up on the Appeals page; it's already in the modqueue if it's flagged and someone who doesn't use the modqueue at all for some reason probably isn't going to be hitting the appeals page any time soon either. I'm not against adding messaging to uploaders but if it bothers you so, you could also bookmark the search user:Provence status:flagged and check it once a day or whatever you feel like.

Since I've now access the the mod queue, I figured, that there is a little gap in the mod queue:
One can see every neccessary thing, except the source. For example there is a really good image but it has no source or a twitter source. So I click now on every pic I approve to look if the source is valid or does exist. And that costs time when I add up the pics I approve.
So would it be possible the implement that the source is also visible in the queue :3?

Not being familiar with what the moderation queue looks like at all, does it allow an approver to pair down the posts to what they're interested in?

In other words, can you use search terms like a regular search to look at only a certain set of posts?

If it's possible, then the source: metatag could be used to search for posts uploaded from Pixiv, Twitter, etc., and also posts with no source. Subtraction also works with that metatag if you wanted to exclude a particular site.

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