Danbooru

Stance on uploading patreon images?

Posted under General

Link to the Patreon post where it originally came from, same as we do with any other site. Just linking to an artist's Patreon feed is about as useful as linking an artist's Twitter feed instead of the actual tweet.

evazion said:

Link to the Patreon post where it originally came from, same as we do with any other site. Just linking to an artist's Patreon feed is about as useful as linking an artist's Twitter feed instead of the actual tweet.

But the difference here is that such posts are not in the Patreon's feed. Some artists like Dandon Fuga upload a lower res version to the public available Patreon.
But since the artists want to make profit with their images on Patreon, it seems logical to say that one should link to the artist's patreon on a post directly.

I have noticed that a recently a few uploaders have been going around mass uploading Patreon rewards from me and some other artists I know. As both a user of this site and an artist with a Patreon, here are my thoughts on this.

I think the stance to delete posts if and only if the artist asks is fair at face value, but a few aspects of how Danbooru works severely undermines this argument. Deleted posts are not removed, simply hidden. The fact that only paid members can see them is irrelevant, since the money does not go towards the artist who requested the posts to be deleted. At best this practice is deceptive. This is similar to how posts of banned artists are not deleted either, which I also strongly disagree with. This is a practice that reeks of deception and disrespect. (This is based on my last known info, so if this has changed feel free to correct me!)

Due to the varying nature of Patreon rewards from artist to artist, it's difficult to make a blanket statement. In the case of my own Patreon rewards, the ones that were uploaded to Danbooru recently are high resolution versions of already uploaded (and freely available) images. While I am not particularly distressed about my own rewards, on principle I think this in very poor taste.

In fact, I think "in poor taste" can be used to describe uploading Patreon rewards in general. You may have your own justifications for doing it, and the artist may not even mind. But seeing people encourage it and even thinking they have the "right" to do it makes this site look really bad.

I think Danbooru is a great site and a convenient tool. I paid my 20 bucks for gold and I use it regularly to find things, even to look up my own art. However, I think a lot needs to be done about the attitude regarding uploading this kind of content.

For starters, why is there even a patreon_reward tag? What categorical benefit does this serve? This gives the appearance that Danbooru encourages the uploading of paid rewards, and only serves to damage the relationship between this site and the artists that generate its content.

Here I have to mention again, these posts should be actually removed from the site if the artist requests it, not simply marked as a deleted post, not just hidden.

I do not personally feel like my Patreon is threatened by Danbooru, but to stand by this stance I would like to request that my recently uploaded Patreon rewards (artist tag ricegnat) be deleted. Properly deleted, if possible. I will stress that I have absolutely no issue with my free content being uploaded here, and am ambivalent about my own rewards, but I do not want to encourage this practice here, at least in its current state.

The problem with removing the image completely from Danbooru (which we call a hard delete) compared to just hiding it (when deleting/banning it) is that there is a big chance someone else will just upload the same image again since you can't really ban an image from being uploaded except with how the current system works. At least the fact that you can see banned/deleted posts when Gold+ is not mentioned/advertised anywhere.

And there was some discussions about the patreon reward tag earlier in this thread.

As Unbreakable says, Danbooru isn't currently coded to permanently ban content per se. It uses existing images, both deleted and banned, as placeholders for comparisons against future uploads. If the MD5 hash of an upload matches the MD5 of an existing post, then it is blocked from being uploaded, hence why the stance has been to just ban a post and let that act as the blocking mechanism.

There are a couple of potential methods that could be used to "superban" an image.

  • #1. Make a banned image hidden to anyone
    • It would block uploads while still keeping all meta-information viewable to users.
    • Would hide all links to the full size, sample and preview urls
  • #2. Maintain a separate database of banned posts
    • It would also block uploads, but the meta information would be hidden/stripped
    • Would only need to maintain the MD5 hash
  • #3. ...?

Though I'm not sure how willing the site maintainers are to changing the current system...?

I totally understand if there are limitations to the current system, but it's not the first time I've brought up this point either. I think the issue is still present and in my opinion it would be beneficial, now more so than before, to work towards a solution.

One of the things that I've been wondering about if banned images were to be hidden to anyone is what would happen to the tags? Would you still be able to change them and if not, what would happen if an alias/implication/mass-update went through that involved them? Would the posts still "show up" in searches and/or the tag count?

Maybe this is derailing the topic too much but just some things that I've been wondering about.

Kerasu said:

Well said.

Anyways, yes, there has been a recent (and if I may add, insane) uptick in the trend for uploading patreon rewards since this discussion has died out. I've largely remained silent about this because the current lack of leverage we have over the current system as contributors and curators has left us at this standstill, given we aren't artists and have no real control over how or if albert chooses to ban artwork. And so the users that think it's acceptable, or even in their "right", continue -- they're basically frolicking in the fields of high scores and high favorite counts, at the loss of artists that should at least be in some form irate over the fact that their exclusives are being shared that publicly. And worse yet, they basically can feign ignorance.

I will not argue over whether it is bad or not because that argument already applies to the numerous kinds of other content that is uploaded here, as feline lump mentioned before. But what I think should change is the general attitude around this -- which, to be fair, user moderation can't really do much given our lack of guidelines regarding it. Sadly, how most things get done on this site is that a problem needs to be made big enough for something to be done about it. Most users, Gold+ or otherwise, are satisfied with the status quo even as it lingers in a grey area because they continue to get their share of popular quality works without having to bear the consequences on either end of the spectrum as artists or curators. But by then, our relationship has failed to be symbiotic -- that is, their loss is as much our loss.

This whole debacle, anyway, isn't just limited to DB but also yande.re. They've also started posting patreon rewards (whether it's sourced from sadpanda, here, or another site), and they have much looser restrictions on their banned artist list (which pretty much doesn't exist even if they claim that the artists banned here are also banned there). There is the problem that if works are hard deleted here it doesn't really stop uninformed users from uploading them here again. But we should at least see how to deal with the problem in this locality.

I have contacted Feguimel in the past to help solidify his stance on this along with the relationship he has with this site (which seems to be positive), but he hasn't seemed to have a problem (since his patreon rewards have stopped being uploaded, at least for now). I surmise he might chime in if it continues though, since the site already has a rocky relationship with many artists and it'd be no surprise to see an influx of banned artists who have had their patreon works uploaded here much like sakimichan.

P.S. Since I've began uploading, I've treated this site as a way to both categorize and expose an artist's works. I've uploaded a number of full-size doujins and artbooks, but I have always done it with the intention to make that work easy for other users to find -- and I think that's supposed to be how we curate, at least how most of us should. There are always uploaders that will do sketchy things such as mask their source or leave it blank, but over the past several months since I've been promoted, I've placed heavier emphasis on properly sourcing and tracing back uploads along with the other queue moderators (namely Chinatsu and kittey).

Uploading any sort of exclusive reward like that is basically against that ethic I have, which is why I have *never* done it. Of course, I'd love to enjoy it if it were provided free, personally, but it would feel wrong if I did. Yet I do understand that curation is as much a dog-eat-dog world to some users, and the whole "ethics" thing doesn't really matter just as long as you're getting them dank, nonexistent upload kudos.

Updated

BrokenEagle98 said:

As Unbreakable says, Danbooru isn't currently coded to permanently ban content per se. It uses existing images, both deleted and banned, as placeholders for comparisons against future uploads. If the MD5 hash of an upload matches the MD5 of an existing post, then it is blocked from being uploaded, hence why the stance has been to just ban a post and let that act as the blocking mechanism.

There are a couple of potential methods that could be used to "superban" an image.

  • #1. Make a banned image hidden to anyone
    • It would block uploads while still keeping all meta-information viewable to users.
    • Would hide all links to the full size, sample and preview urls
  • #2. Maintain a separate database of banned posts
    • It would also block uploads, but the meta information would be hidden/stripped
    • Would only need to maintain the MD5 hash
  • #3. ...?

Though I'm not sure how willing the site maintainers are to changing the current system...?

Yep, and nothing stops a user from reuploading the image when they can even make miniscule changes to modify the MD5. Could be a dummy comment in the metadata, a stray pixel at 99% opacity... etc.

I think we shouldn't be too concerned about that though. If we intend for the blocking mechanism to work as intended then it should at least be even more restrictive (perhaps only Builder+ can see banned works, or only Moderator+), but then that has its own problems... The banned gallery would really fail to be gardened anymore if it were Moderator+, and if it were Builder+ then I surmise we'd see a temporary influx of users that would want to get promoted through contribution (so they can see the banned gallery), and then basically just sit on their promotion while not doing anything anymore.

EDIT: OT from this post, but I should also mention this isn't limited to just Patreon -- there are a number of sites that offer subscription exclusives: Enty and Fantia (which are both basically Japanese Patreon-likes) and also Pixiv FANBOX (works just about the same way, with the additional caveat of fan exclusive privileges such as contests, prizes, Q&A's, etc).

I've had all admins except Albert voice their opinions on this matter already. For action to be taken, you're really gonna have to bug them yourself since they're all pretty much okay with the Patreon rewards being uploaded and the tag itself unless an artist tells Albert.

tapnek said:

I've had all admins except Albert voice their opinions on this matter already. For action to be taken, you're really gonna have to bug them yourself since they're all pretty much okay with the Patreon rewards being uploaded and the tag itself unless an artist tells Albert.

Meh, guess we'll see what happens then. If that's the current route this is going to go, then I suspect there's going to be a number of purges in the near future. Whether that be some of their content or all of it, who knows.

Mikaeri said:

Yep, and nothing stops a user from reuploading the image when they can even make miniscule changes to modify the MD5. Could be a dummy comment in the metadata, a stray pixel at 99% opacity... etc.

Yeah, and nothing stops Moderators from superbanning those individuals for such blatant chicanery... :/

tapnek said:

I've had all admins except Albert voice their opinions on this matter already. For action to be taken, you're really gonna have to bug them yourself since they're all pretty much okay with the Patreon rewards being uploaded and the tag itself unless an artist tells Albert.

We're not "okay" with it so much as we're subordinate to the site owner, @albert, and he doesn't want to delete nor forbid the upload of Patreon rewards. If you want to bug someone, bug him.

BrokenEagle98 said:

Yeah, and nothing stops Moderators from superbanning those individuals for such blatant chicanery... :/

There's always the option of simply feigning ignorance, shrug

Well, whatever direction the site or albert takes, I'm still going to continue doing what I usually do until I get sick and tired of it I suppose...

Would it make sense to flag them after they've been tagged patreon reward like we've been doing with nude filter? At the very least that'll dissuade most non-contributor/builder level users.
Also it's only one or two dedicated uploaders who are going ham and uploading everything for the internet points. Would it make sense to leave feedback on their profiles to ask people not to upload patreon rewards?
Honestly if we can just get an explicit policy change that shows that Danbooru isn't looking to screw over independent artists on patreon and other sites that do exclusive content, we can at least pretend that we're doing something.

Also are you guys going to do anything in response to Kerasu's request?

Kerasu said:

I do not personally feel like my Patreon is threatened by Danbooru, but to stand by this stance I would like to request that my recently uploaded Patreon rewards (artist tag ricegnat) be deleted. Properly deleted, if possible. I will stress that I have absolutely no issue with my free content being uploaded here, and am ambivalent about my own rewards, but I do not want to encourage this practice here, at least in its current state.

Or are you going to just let this slide too?

kthxbai said:

Would it make sense to flag them after they've been tagged patreon reward like we've been doing with nude filter? At the very least that'll dissuade most non-contributor/builder level users.
Also it's only one or two dedicated uploaders who are going ham and uploading everything for the internet points. Would it make sense to leave feedback on their profiles to ask people not to upload patreon rewards?
Honestly if we can just get an explicit policy change that shows that Danbooru isn't looking to screw over independent artists on patreon and other sites that do exclusive content, we can at least pretend that we're doing something.

Also are you guys going to do anything in response to Kerasu's request?

Or are you going to just let this slide too?

We don't delete posts based on where they're sourced from (unless they're third-party/samples). If the quality suffices, then we accept the upload, even if it's coming from a banned artist. As for user moderation, there's nothing outlining that it's wrong (and thus, nothing to 'penalize'). For that to happen, the site owner has to take a stance on it, and currently that stance is that patreon rewards are fair game to upload. That being said, a number of higher-staffed and prominent builder level users have already upped patreon rewards, so it's likely the practice is... "moderately" condoned by that part of the userbase anyway. Even fellow Builder+ users I've known and talked to have taken skeptical approaches to it. I won't name who, but the context of a previous post might give it away (and it's pretty obvious going by who's going ham for most of them).

Amending the ToS... again, site owner/Admin thing. It's possible to change, but it's extremely difficult to.

As for Kerasu/ricegnat's request, he'll have to contact albert about it. Basically needs to confirm through a separate channel (official pixiv/twitter/email/whatever) or provide proof that that is indeed him. As for a 'hard' deletion? It'll likely go through... At least, I think. I have no experience/meddling in this, but it would seem wrong given that he's a paid user here (and he's clearly not new on how the site works).

I wish I could help in some way, but the only thing I can do for now is ban the patreon rewards (soft 'ban'). Can't do so without hearing from the genuine artist himself though.

My opinion is it's not fair to single out Patreon as an exception to the ban rule. If an artist deletes their account on Pixiv and requests Danbooru to delete all their art, the only thing that is done is a soft ban. But it's clear the artist's intent is to remove the files. We've tolerated this so far because of the language barrier and the site generally doesn't care what the artist's intent was as long as the artwork is worth keeping around. I think as users, this is the policy most of us want as it minimizes losing access to art while nominally satisfying the artist.

I realize Patreon rewards are slightly different, but it still comes down to whether or not we want to respect the wishes of the creator.

If we want to side with the creators, the only fair thing to do is to delete all references to the image whenever an artist is banned. The database record can be left intact and that will prevent re-uploads.

It's a hard decision but this isn't something I would want. Danbooru is a site for fans, not for creators. Losing access to art like that would drive me crazy. I don't want to have to manually download everything out of fear that the artist might one day want their art to disappear. There's also the reality that it's trivial to find the banned image anyway on Gelbooru or any number of clones because of the way the syncing works.

What I could support is making the banned image harder to access. It could be as simple as not embedding the image or linking to it, or adding an intermediate screen suggesting the viewer support the artist on their Patreon.

patreon_reward is arguably not a useful tag since there's nothing in the image itself which indicates it. I would be in support of removing it.

albert said:

I'm in agreement with the first paragraph pretty much (which is why I skirt lines and upload from some banned artists anyway), since I don't (or at least wouldn't) imagine them discovering that they aren't "actually" removed once they're past that barrier. It does indeed minimize art loss.

The repost part to gelbooru/sankaku/yandere part is pretty much another problem I had -- the problem isn't limited to here. Of course, we're diligent in uploading and tagging those works, but changing that policy only convinces uploaders to upload somewhere else which still won't solve the problem at hand, since it's a problem bigger than danbooru to begin with. Yande.re doesn't ban artists consistently, and gelbooru/sankaku have pretty much no concept of a banned artist.

But that's right, this is a site for fans, not creators. Supporting the creators really is only a somewhat beneficial side effect sometimes, depending on how they want their work to be distributed or exposed. Some are incredibly against reposting to other sites (even Tumblr or Twitter), and others are pretty much lukewarm to anything as long as their work is correctly sourced back.

I would be in favor of adding things that would make banned images harder to access, but I should mention offhand that users usually find a way around them (BBB and the like). As to how popular those tools are, I'm not really sure but it might increase after this scuffle.

I'm neither for or against the presence of patreon reward. I understand it might be a sort of 'symbolic' metatag, but there's also issues with having it around -- the whole 'painting a target on ourselves' thing comes to mind. Albeit if there's going to be some sort of intermediate screen (tentative) linking to their patreon, I imagine there would need some sort of tag like it in place so such a feature would work properly?

albert said:

If we want to side with the creators, the only fair thing to do is to delete all references to the image whenever an artist is banned. The database record can be left intact and that will prevent re-uploads.

This would be the ideal solution from my perspective, but I can understand if this is a difficult decision to make. I personally would not object to a tighter restriction on access to "banned" images. Leaving them accessible to moderators/approvers seems like a reasonable compromise to help them easily identify already-deleted posts.

Also I know last year(?) there was a change to how user's upload limits are calculated, but I don't recall exactly how harsh the penalty is for a deleted post. If uploaders are shotgunning posts for internet points (they are), I definitely would hope that getting a large number of them deleted at once would ding them hard enough to think about it before doing it again.

albert said:

There's also the reality that it's trivial to find the banned image anyway on Gelbooru or any number of clones because of the way the syncing works.

One of the main reasons I prefer Danbooru over Gel/other clones is the (generally) meticulous record-keeping done by the community here. Gelbooru is a disaster of mistagged images and poor quality uploads, so I am making the effort to speak out here because there's a higher chance something will be done about it. My hope is to change things at the source to minimize some of the rippling.

I certainly don't speak for all artists, but if people were waiting for a public opinion from an artist regarding policy, you've got at least one now. I am definitely willing to bounce around ideas, so I'd like to gently push for some sort of conclusion and solution.

albert said:

patreon_reward is arguably not a useful tag since there's nothing in the image itself which indicates it. I would be in support of removing it.

This makes me happy.

Kerasu said:

I do not personally feel like my Patreon is threatened by Danbooru, but to stand by this stance I would like to request that my recently uploaded Patreon rewards (artist tag ricegnat) be deleted. Properly deleted, if possible. I will stress that I have absolutely no issue with my free content being uploaded here, and am ambivalent about my own rewards, but I do not want to encourage this practice here, at least in its current state.

I still stand by this statement and would like to go through with it now that I've got albert's attention. I can provide proof that I'm me if needed.

albert said:

[...] adding an intermediate screen suggesting the viewer support the artist on their Patreon.

Mikaeri said:

I'm neither for or against the presence of patreon reward. I understand it might be a sort of 'symbolic' metatag, but there's also issues with having it around -- the whole 'painting a target on ourselves' thing comes to mind. Albeit if there's going to be some sort of intermediate screen (tentative) linking to their patreon, I imagine there would need some sort of tag like it in place so such a feature would work properly?

Speaking of bouncing around ideas, I would also support this feature if paid content is to remain on the site. From personal experience both as an artist and a consumer I know this works; I have paid for comics I found on exhentai after seeing the artist's "If you liked this, consider buying it!" comment on the upload. It does not need to be as obtrusive as an intermediate screen either; simply a banner at the top of the post would suffice, for example.

I am sure this can be done through some form of metadata as opposed to a tag, but if the tag exists to support this feature I would not object to it.

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